How did Intelligent Designer/God do it? How was life created?

Since scientists have not been able to prove or even logically explain the origins of life (abiogenesis) by natural, unguided, gradual processes often referred to as the bottom-up approach, it is conceivable to imply that the process of life origins on Earth could be scientifically explained by the design and creation process often referred to as the top-down approach.The top-down approach is sometimes used by scientists in attempts of recreation of small life forms, like a eukaryotic cell.

I will however apply the top-down approach to the process of the designing and creating of human life Intelligent Designer or God (ID/God) could have used.

In other words, the top-down approach is the only conceivable way of the designing and creating life as even in case of the simplest of cells all organelles and functional structures of a cell have to be present, and at the same time, as they are mutually interdependent, including the cell membrane, for it to function or be alive or stay alive. Without the cell membrane or one of the structures or organelles, the cell stops functioning and eventually dies.

In an attempt to explain how the process of the designing and creating of life could have been achieved by ID/God, I will use the illustration some naturalistic, evolutionary scientists often use to try to explain the process of evolution of life often called descent with modifications, where they refer to an “evolution” or change of one model of the car over the many years.

Since this process itself doesn’t explain how the original car appeared in the first place by slow, unguided processes, (bottom-up) I will use it as an example of what kind of planning, engineering, integration and manufacturing would be necessary for a car to “appear” in the first place, before it could go through the further gradual processes of “descent with modification” or changes over time.

Then I will apply the same methods and principles to the process of the designing and creating of life.

The designer comes up with a general idea and structure for a car and its function

  • The designer decides what functional systems would be necessary for the car to work according to the design
  • Then the designer decides how the individual parts need to work and be integrated into functional systems and functional systems into functional car
  • The designer decides what materials need to be manufactured, such as steel, aluminum, copper, plastic, electrical wires, fabrics etc. for the individual parts to be manufactured he is going to use in order for the functional systems to be assembled, such as an engine, transmission, chassis the body/frame, source of energy and so on
  • Once the design has been experimented with the integration of all the individual parts into systems and systems into the functional car, the final blueprint of the car is ready. The final manufacturing process of all the parts can begin
    Then, all the parts can be assembled into functional systems and the functional systems into a functional car
  • The car has been assembled and is ready to function according to the design
    Then the designer turns on the ignition, puts into the first gear, then he puts his foot on the accelerator and the car moves
  • The idea for a car has become reality. It functions according to the initial idea and the design

Let’s look closer at the materials, such as steel, copper, fabrics, wires etc. They are made of smaller elements; really tiny pieces of stuff. Actually, on subatomic level, they are made up of 3 ingredients: protons, neutrons and electrons.

As a matter fact, as far as we know, the whole matter in the universe is made of protons, neutrons and electrons.

The same applies to life, including human body. Life and human body on subatomic level is made of 3 ingredients: protons, neutrons and electrons.

And this is very important information because on this very fact my whole theory as to How ID/God created life is based.

Just like the car, human body is made of or built of many functional systems, like circulatory system, nervous system, lymphatic system, bones, veins, and so on.

Human body systems are made of integrated organs.

Those organs are made of different types of tissues.

Tissues are made of different types of cells (about 200 types of cells).

Cells are made of different organelles – organized or specialized structures within the living cell. Most types of cells share the same organelles or specialized structures within a living cells but other cells do not. Some of the organelles carry DNA, which is necessary for the process of reproduction of the living organism that non-living things, like a cars, don’t obviously have.

Organelles are made of macromolecules, like carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids, proteins and so on.
Macromolecules are made of chemical elements, like carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and so on.
Chemical elements are made of atoms.

Atoms are made of subatomic elements like protons, neutrons and electrons.

And, as I mentioned earlier, just like the car, on subatomic level is made of protons, neutrons and electrons, so is human body and all life on the Earth.

(Quarks are, as far as we know, the smallest pieces of stuff. There are 6 different types of quarks, and different combinations produce different types of subatomic particles like protons. For simplicity and clarity, I’ll focus on the 3 ingredients or building blocks of all matter: protons, neutrons and electrons as it is just easier to follow what I’m trying to convey.)

If I missed a step or more in the structure of what the human body and life is made of, feel free to correct it but this is not really that important now…

Life and human body on subatomic level are built of only 3 ingredients: protons, neutrons and electrons. While this might be mind-boggling if you think about how complex human body is, especially human brain, this is actually true as far as science has revealed it so far.

While the composition of life and human body is based on the 3 subatomic elements protons, neutrons and electrons, how life and human body function is based on how the three elemental building blocks of life (protons, neutrons and electrons) interact with each other or what their quantum state is; what their interactions or relations are.

Quantum state is simply something that encodes or translates the state of a system; how protons, neutrons and electrons interact with each other to form a state of a system. Behind each quantum state is the information that expresses the quantum state of the subatomic particles.

Here is the most interesting part about quantum state and quantum mechanics (science that is a part of physics) that deals with the mathematical description of the motion and interaction of subatomic particles.

According to quantum mechanics any quantum state of protons, neutrons and electrons that form a system or systems can be transferred or teleported due to quantum entanglement (predicament of subatomic particles) from one place to another, without traveling through any physical medium.

 

Scientists have already successfully teleported photons, which are particles of light as well as small pieces of matter across a short distance.

And this is the most essential part of my theory.

Since scientists have successfully teleported particles and small pieces of matter, who says that humans could not be teleported in the future? While human teleportation is still in theory today, it may very well become reality in the future. It has not been proven wrong at least mathematically.

Let’s just focus on the possibilities of human teleportation.
Since a picture is worth a thousand words here are some videos that explain how quantum teleportation of humans could work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI

I personally like this video at 40 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z8Ma2YT8vY

So, human teleportation in theory seems possible. Whether it will be possible in the future it remains to be seen.

NEXT

So you may wonder; how does human teleportation, whether possible or not in the future, relate to the theme of my post: How did the ID/God create life?

Well, I think it does.
As you may recall on the outset of my post, just like any car is built in the top-down process starting with an idea/design, blueprint etc. all the way down to the elements that are made of subatomic particles, so could human body starting with its blueprint all the way down to the elements that are made subatomic particles; protons, neurons and electrons.
How that could have been done in reality by ID/God, the possibility of human quantum teleportation sheds some light on that.
For human body to be teleported–transferred from one place to another, without actually traveling through any physical medium–the quantum state of each of the subatomic particles that make up the human body to be teleported would have to be extracted (scanned or analyzed) and then teleported or sent exactly to the designated location where the human body is supposed to “arrive” and to be reassembled.
In quantum teleportation, the subatomic particles that make up the original human body are NOT literary sent. No. It’s the information about their quantum state that is sent thanks to the laws of quantum mechanics called quantum entanglement.
Wikipedia–Quantum entanglement is a physical phenomenon that occurs when pairs or groups of particles are generated or interact in ways such that the quantum state of each particle cannot be described independently of the others, even when the particles are separated by a large distance—instead, a quantum state must be described.

QE video link???
For human quantum teleportation to happen, 2 entangled chambers containing subatomic particles, protons, neutrons and electrons are needed. The first chamber will act as a “sending chamber” and the second as a” receiving or reassembling chamber”.
Then, a third chamber will be needed that will act as a body scanner or fax machine that will be interacting with the “sending chamber”, while compering the quantum states of each particle that the human body to be teleported is made of.
The process of quantum teleportation involves the scanning or extracting the quantum state of each of the subatomic particles (protons, neurons and electrons) that the body to be teleported is made of and sending it to the receiving chamber that is entangled with the sending chamber.
Because the particles in the “sending chamber” are entangled with the particles in the “receiving chamber”, the “receiving chamber” reads the quantum state of each particles that was extracted from the human body in the scanning chamber and reassembles it into the exact quantum state or the exact human body composition that it was before being teleported.
In quantum teleportation, the subatomic particles that make up the original human body are not sent. It’s the information about their quantum state that is sent thanks to the laws of quantum mechanics called quantum entanglement.
Since according to quantum mechanics, life on the subatomic level equals the quantum state of each the subatomic particles that make up the life form, there should be no difference between the human body that was alive in the scanning chamber and the reassembled human body that is now alive in the receiving chamber.
Since according to quantum mechanics you can’t create 2 exactly the same quantum states of an object, in quantum teleportation you can’t teleport an object without destroying in the process.
Actually, you can’t extract the quantum state of the object to be teleported without destroying it in the process of scanning it.

While there may be some philosophical implications (depending on one’s beliefs on soul and consciousness) that would have to be answered about the process of human quantum teleportation (I can try to answer them later) let’s just focus on the implications that the possibility of human quantum teleportation presents us with when it comes to the process of creation of human life.
While still in theory, human quantum teleportation seems possible, could the human quantum teleportation be done by the ID/God who created the universe and physical laws that govern quantum mechanics and make human quantum teleportation seem possible?
Let’s just ponder this for a moment: Scientist have already teleported small pieces of matter. Could the creator of matter and the physical laws that make quantum teleportation possible teleport bigger pieces of matter?
How about quantum teleportation of a piece of matter that is alive? Is it possible? Would it be feasible for ID/God who knows every detail about quantum mechanics and quantum entanglement that make quantum teleportation possible, including human teleportation?
And if ID/God is able to teleport matter that is alive, like human body, could he have used the same method, the laws that govern quantum mechanics that he created, like quantum entanglement to create life in the top-down approach rather than bottom-up, like abiogenesis or evolution?
Without answering this question now, let’s assume that ID/God could use the physical laws of quantum mechanics, like quantum entanglement and quantum teleportation to create life on Earth, including humans.
Let’s see how that could have been accomplished considering what we have discussed so far about quantum mechanics, quantum entanglement and quantum teleportation.

As I said before, according to quantum mechanics, life on subatomic level equals the many quantum states of subatomic particles-protons, neurons and electrons.
In other words, the composition of life is dependent on the information about the many different quantum states of the particles that form the life form, including human life.
As I mentioned earlier, for human quantum teleportation to happen, 2 chambers with entangled particles protons, neutrons and electrons are needed, as well as a scanning device or chamber that compares the quantum state of particles making up the human body to be teleported with the particles found in one of the entangled chambers that will act as the sending chamber.
The sending chamber containing with subatomic particles protons, neutrons and electrons entangled with the particles in the receiving chamber
The receiving chamber with subatomic particles – protons, neurons and electrons that are entangled with the sending chamber
The scanning device or chamber that acts like a scanner or a fax machine that interacts with the sending chamber and extracts the quantum state of the particles making up the human body to be teleported.

Let’s now apply what has been mentioned so far about the possibilities that quantum mechanics, quantum entanglement and quantum teleportation present us with to the process of creating life.
Could the laws of physics, like quantum mechanics, that govern the universe have been use by ID/ God to create life on earth including humans?
As I mentioned on the outset, the process of the designing and manufacturing the car involves the top-down approach. First an idea for a car, the blueprint, the design of different systems that would make up the car, the parts that would make up the functioning systems, the materials that would be used to manufacture the parts, the elements that the materials would be manufactured from and at the end of top-down method are the subatomic particles that make up the elements that the whole car is made of or built with.
In reality however the whole structure of the car and its function is dependent on the quantum state of the 3 subatomic particles protons, neutrons and electrons. And while in theory today, because of laws of quantum mechanics, the whole car could also be teleported using quantum teleportation method of the 3 chambers mentioned earlier. Scientists have already teleported small pieces of matter. Is it just a matter of time before they teleport bigger, larger ones?
A car to be teleported would have to be scanned in the scanning chamber for the quantum state or the many arrangements of the 3 particles it is made of and reconstructed exactly at the receiving chamber that is entengled with the sending chamber that interacts with the scanning chamber.
???video car teleportation???

Let’s focus now on the creation process of life and humans.
Similarly to the process of the designing and manufacturing the car, the ID/ God comes up with an idea for human life (having already experimented with simpler life forms that had been created before human life); human body and its function.
Starting with a blueprint, first he decides what the human body is going to look like and function, what functional systems are going to be the part of the functioning human, like circulatory system, nervous system, lymphatic system, bones, veins etc. and obviously the reproductive system.
Then he decides what organs are going to be integrated into body systems.
Then he decides on the many different types of tissues that those different organs are going to be made of to perform their many functions.
Then he decides on the many different types of cells (about 200 types of cells) that those tissues are going to be made of.
Then he decides on the many different types of spricialised structures like organelles – organized or specialized structures within the living cell – that the many different types of cells are going to be made of
Then he decides what macromolecules, like carbohydrates, lipids, proteins etc. are going to be used to make up those specialized structures (organelles).
Microelements are made of chemical elements, like carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc.
The elements, like carbon, hydrogen and oxygen and so on are made of atoms.
Atoms are made of subatomic elements or particles, like protons, neutrons and electrons.
And, as I mentioned earlier, just like a car on subatomic level is made of protons, neutrons and electrons, so is human body and all life on Earth.
Those 3 subatomic particles form all matter in the universe including all known life, like human life.
However, what makes the existence of matter and life possible are the many different quantum states (arrangements) of those 3 subatomic particles or how they interact with each other.
Now, the ID/God has the final blueprint and the design of human body ready.
Now using the same laws of physics that make quantum teleportation possible he encodes (using a big, big efficient quantum computer?) the exact information about the many different quantum states of each of the 3 subatomic particles to form the fundamental elements of the human body like carbon, hydrogen, hydrogen etc. He arranges the many different quantum states of those 3 particles to form a functional human body according to the original blueprint and design.
The process of encoding the information about the many different quantum states into the 3 subatomic particles of life involves foreknowledge and foresight as to how the human body is going to function in the end.
This knowledge requires that the final integration of all systems be encoded in the top-down approach that fully functional human body that is alive is dependent on all functional systems and subsystems that are all present or it can’t function or be alive just like a cell mention earlier.

In other words, the ID/God knows exactly what the entire final quantum state (information) the human body would have to be in for it to function or be alive. So, he encodes this information exactly for the many different quantum states that protons, neurons and electrons would have to be in order to interact with each other to form the many of their quantum states for the elements to form, macromolecules and so on…then the fully functional systems and then he integrates systems to form life and the human body that is alive.
Once all the information about the quantum state of each individual part of the human body is encoded, the process of human creation can begin using the same method that applies to quantum teleportation with one exception of the scanning device or chamber, since no physical human body exists yet to be scanned. It needs to be assembled or materialized first based on the information that has been encoded by ID/God.
In order to create (assemble) the exact human body based on the final quantum state it needs to be in, all the ID/ God needs to do is encode the sending chamber or send the information directly about the quantum state of each of the many particles that the human body is going to be made of.
Just like in quantum teleportation,
the sending chamber (interacts) is encoded with information from the scanning device or chamber about the quantum state of each of the particles the human body to be teleported and reassembled in the receiving chamber,
in human body creation, the sending chamber is encoded directly by ID/God with information about the quantum state of each of the many particles of the human body to be created in the receiving chamber.
The rest of the process of the creation of the human body remains the same as in the quantum teleportation process mentioned earlier.
Based on the information about the quantum state the human body needs to be in to be created, thanks to quantum entanglement, the receiving chamber reconstructs the quantum state of each of the particles based on the information the sending chamber was encoded with or received directly by ID/God.
The human body creation has been accomplished thanks to the possibilities of quantum mechanics, quantum entanglement and quantum teleportation.
So, the process of creation of life, including human life, would involve the already known process that quantum mechanics allows in the quantum teleportation due to quantum entanglement of particles, which is dependent on the information about their many, many quantum states those particles can be arranged into.
(Another possibility would be for ID/God to encode or send the information about the quantum state of each of the particls to form the humand body directly to the receiving/assembling chamber but because scientist can’t do that yet, the more reasonable approach is the use of quantum entagled chambers.)
Use 1 only
Is there evidence or a clue that the process of creation of life (by top-down approach) on Earth including human life that quantum mechanics allows could have been used by ID/God?

Are there any clues that ID/God used the top-down method in the creation of life on Earth, like human life using already existing laws of physics like quantum mechanics?
Let’s see.
The biblical account of creation in the book of genesis tells us that God created life including human life out of the dust of the ground. The Hebrew word for “dust” in Genesis 2:7 is aphar can be translated as clay, earth, mud, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, powder.
How would you describe the process of creation of human life to men few thousand years ago involving quantum mechanics or the many quantum states of subatomic particles forming human body? Would you describe it in the terms physicists use today to explain quantum mechanics? I doubt that.
So, to describe the process of creation that would involve the many quantum states of subatomic particles forming human body to simple man few thousand years ago or even few hundred, the word dust or clay could be appropriately used since all the elements necessary to form human body are available in the ground of the earth. It seem that only 11 major elements are necessary for life.
Wikipedia “Almost 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. Only about 0.85% is composed of another five elements: potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, and magnesium. All 11 are necessary for life. The remaining elements are trace elements, of which more than a dozen are thought on the basis of good evidence to be necessary for life. All of the mass of the trace elements put together (less than 10 grams for a human body) do not add up to the body mass of magnesium, the least common of the 11 non-trace elements.”
All these elements are found in the Earth’s crust.
Now, once all the necessary elements were “formed” (the many quantum states of the subatomic particles have been encoded) into the human body, something would have to be needed to make those elements form a living thing or living human body. The account from genesis definitely implies that.
Other translations ??G, of enesis 2:7
“God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being”.
So, just like the designer of the car tuned on the ignition and applied the source of energy for all the systems to start to function, like to start the engine for the car to function, so did the ID/God to make the human body become alive applied the energy sustained by breathing for human body to function.

403 thoughts on “How did Intelligent Designer/God do it? How was life created?”

  1. waltowalto

    I know there is some method of keeping certain posts at the top–making them “sticky” or something. I’m wondering whether there’s also something that could move OPs like this one to the bottom. After all, some poor soul might just happen upon this site, perhaps through a google search, and see this thing.

    I apologize in advance if this should have been posted in Moderation.

  2. Neil Rickert

    Since scientists have not been able to prove or even logically explain the origins of life (abiogenesis) by natural, unguided, gradual processes often referred to as the bottom-up approach, it is conceivable to imply that the process of life origins on Earth could be scientifically explained by the design and creation process often referred to as the top-down approach.The top-down approach is sometimes used by scientists in attempts of recreation of small life forms, like a eukaryotic cell.

    “Top down” and “bottom up” don’t actually mean anything, at least you are using those terms.

    The automobile is designed top-down by the design engineers. But it is manufactured bottom up. Just by looking at it, you cannot decide which term is appropriate.

    For biology, what might look like bottom-up in terms of genes, could also look to be a top-down emergent process in terms of morphology.

  3. REW

    I think the never ending argument between creationists and science promoters has deteriorated in the last couple of years. Before he was a God debater Dawkins was a science writer and he wrote 2 very good books explaining in outline how natural selection can produce complex objects. Creationists who were aware of this took pains to try to make a distinction between evolved complexity from created complexity. But in the last few years the commenters at UD have gotten into this cult-like mantra that complexity can only be produced by a designer. They assert this as an axiom without question and wont consider any other possibility.
    I think the last 2 posts are evidence of this

  4. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    Notice the complete lack of empirically verifiable mechanisms amidst all this pseudo-science.

  5. AcartiaAcartia

    All I get out of this is that life was designed by a human teleported back to a time before life appeared. Or, that was the logical inference I was getting before I stopped reading this nonsense. Did it get better?

  6. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    Acartia:
    All I get out of this is that life was designed by a human teleported back to a time before life appeared. Or, that was the logical inference I was getting before I stopped reading this nonsense. Did it get better?

    No, it did not.

  7. dazzdazz

    Teleportation… hmm, interesting. We finally have a serious alternative to gpuccio’s quantum interfacing.

  8. colewd

    GlenDavidson,

    Do you consider Star Trek to be science, because it mentions quantum entanglement?

    Do you agree that quantum entanglement is experimentally validated science? If so then the Star Trek concept is base on science. The concept of teleportation is being discussed by physicists based on the principle of quantum entanglement. Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis. A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

  9. waltowalto

    colewd: If so then the Star Trek concept is base on science. The concept of teleportation is being discussed by physicists based on the principle of quantum entanglement. Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis. A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    Hahaha.

  10. GlenDavidson

    colewd:
    GlenDavidson,

    Do you agree that quantum entanglement is experimentally validated science?If so then the Star Trek concept is base on science.The concept of teleportation is being discussed by physicists based on the principle of quantum entanglement.Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis.A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    And you see nothing wrong with such a mish-mash of prejudice, conflation, and invidious comparison?

    Glen Davidson

  11. dazzdazz

    colewd:
    GlenDavidson,

    Do you agree that quantum entanglement is experimentally validated science?If so then the Star Trek concept is base on science.The concept of teleportation is being discussed by physicists based on the principle of quantum entanglement.Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis.A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    comedy gold! ROTFLMFAO!

  12. Allan Miller

    J-Mac – do you propose to debate this one, or is it the usual post-and-run? I feel we are being pampleteered.

  13. Allan Miller

    colewd,

    A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    Whoa there Neddy, rein in the hyperbole! You are categorically saying that natural selection has never been observed?

  14. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    colewd:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    Do you consider quantum entanglement pseudo-science?

    It pains me to have to point this out, but here goes.

    In the case of human beings, we actually do know the causal mechanisms — the mathematical theory embedded in the technology and equipment — how we are able to observe entanglement and produce teleportation. We can determine when the experiments have been a success and when they have been a failure.

    Not so in the case of a posited Designer, whether that Designer is a Creator God or more like the Demiurge. Since we know nothing about the Designer’s abilities and limitations, we can nothing about how it causally interacts with quantum phenomena in order to bring about desired results.

    In the case of God, the epistemic situation is even worse. Presumably an omnipotent God would bring about desired effects simply by thinking them. He would (on this hypothesis) be able to manipulate quantum states by thought alone.

    But how? How could God’s thoughts and intentions be causally efficacious in this way? What is the mechanism by which divine intentions causally interact with quantum phenomena? How could that mechanism be measured? Can we empirically verify it?

    It’s the fact that these questions cannot be answered that makes this proposal full-on pseudo-science or “cargo cult science,” full of seeming profundities but with no genuine understanding of how science is practiced.

  15. Alan FoxAlan Fox

    walto:
    I know there is some method of keeping certain posts at the top–making them “sticky” or something.I’m wondering whether there’s also something that could move OPs like this one to the bottom.After all, some poor soul might just happen upon this site, perhaps through a google search, and see this thing.

    Yes, there should be some bar to clear, low enough to avoid the charge of censorship but high enough to avoid the charge of idiocy.

    I apologize in advance if this should have been posted in Moderation.

    OK but next time…

  16. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    Alan Fox:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    The interface, dualists! Show us the interface!

    Yes, pretty much. It’s the same general problem: how can there be causal relation without a specific mechanism that implements that relation, and which can be investigated and verified?

    There are couple of ways of putting the key insight of pragmatism, and here’s one: no postulation without verification.

    With the caveats: “postulation” here means “postulated as having causal powers” and “verified” here means “by way of suitably trained and equipped inquirers, whose training and equipment refines and extends their ‘innate’ perceptual and conceptual abilities”.

    The idea, in short, is that we should refrain from introducing posited (non-observed) causal powers unless we can also include a ‘commentary’ on how the posited causal powers could come within our cognitive grasp. Without that commentary, the posit could not guide any empirical inquiry. It would be epistemically inert, just like Russell’s Teapot (sure, it could be there, but we have no way of finding out, so it doesn’t matter).

  17. colewd

    Kantian Naturalist,

    But how? How could God’s thoughts and intentions be causally efficacious in this way? What is the mechanism by which divine intentions causally interact with quantum phenomena? How could that mechanism be measured? Can we empirically verify it?

    It’s the fact that these questions cannot be answered that makes this proposal full-on pseudo-science or “cargo cult science,” full of seeming profundities but with no genuine understanding of how science is practiced.

    In all science we eventually hit a wall where we can no longer explain cause as we move down the regressive path. i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    The design hypothesis has always simply been observing design in nature. In this post J-Mac attempts to make one peal of the onion and explores a mechanism for how a designer might execute life’s design. He has made a bold attempt here and I think he should receive real feedback.

    It does not take any effort to dismiss his argument out of hand.

  18. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    colewd:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    In all science we eventually hit a wall where we can no longer explain cause as we move down the regressive path. i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    None of these are even coherent as scientific questions. If what you intended to say is, “how does mass distort space-time?”, ok, that’s a fine question. And maybe there’s an answer to it. But if there is an answer to it, that answer will itself have to involve some empirically verifiable mechanism or process. Otherwise it’s just not science, but magic.

    The design hypothesis has always simply been observing design in nature.

    At this point it’s almost amusing that you’re not aware of the meaning of the words that you’re using as you type them. If something is a hypothesis, then it is not observed. Hypotheses are claims that explain what is observed.

    In this post J-Mac attempts to make one peal of the onion and explores a mechanism for how a designer might execute life’s design. He has made a bold attempt here and I think he should receive real feedback.

    Divine intentions just pushing electrons around as if by magic is not a mechanism.

    It does not take any effort to dismiss his argument out of hand.

    I’m not dismissing his “argument” out of hand. I considered it carefully and rejected it for reasons given above.

    Also, arguments aren’t explanations.

  19. newton

    colewd: In all science we eventually hit a wall where we can no longer explain cause as we move down the regressive path. i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    For instance, where has science hit the wall? Newtonian physics?

  20. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    newton: For instance, where has science hit the wall? Newtonian physics?

    Colewd is suggesting — correctly, as it happens — that every scientific theory has its own inherent limitations. I was only pointing out that those limitations are overcome by some successor theory, if we happen to find out, and successor theories require their own confirmation.

    What we have in the meantime is not science but what Friedman calls “metascience”:

    Science, if it is to continue to progress through revolutions, therefore needs a source of new ideas, alternative programs, and expanded possibilities that is not itself scientific in the same sense . . . what is needed here is precisely the creation and stimulation of new frameworks or paradigms, together with what we might call meta-frameworks or meta-paradigms — new conceptions of what a coherent rational understanding of nature might amount to — capable of motivating and sustaining the revolutionary transition to a new first-level or scientific paradigm. Philosophy, through its close association with the sciences, has functioned in precisely this way. . . . [Philosophers] should rejoice, along with the sciences, in our fundamentally distinct, yet mutually complementary contributions to the total ongoing dialectic of human knowledge

    I very much like this characterization of how philosophy and science together contribute to human knowledge — science by testing empirical claims relative to constitutive frameworks or paradigms, and philosophy by opening up places for speculation and a kind of play when the limits of a paradigm are reached — and where the seeds of new paradigms can be planted and begin to sprout.

  21. GlenDavidson

    colewd: It does not take any effort to dismiss his argument out of hand.

    No, and it certainly didn’t take much intellection to incoherently string together his wall of pop science jargon ending, predictably, in Genesis.

    You seem to have no conception of the difference between meaningful reality-based arguments and sciency flim-flam. And not just where creation and evolution are concerned, you appear quite at sea in recognizing how legitimate inferences are made in any subject.

    Glen Davidson

  22. keithskeiths

    colewd,

    Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis.A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    Based on your own experience of repeated failure at TSZ, do you recognize how unqualified you are to render that judgment? Why do you take your scientific judgments seriously, given your lack of ability?

    In this post J-Mac attempts to make one peal of the onion…

    Onions make poor bells, and J-Macs and colewds make poor scientists.

  23. colewd

    Kantian Naturalist,

    I very much like this characterization of how philosophy and science together contribute to human knowledge — science by testing empirical claims relative to constitutive frameworks or paradigms, and philosophy by opening up places for speculation and a kind of play when the limits of a paradigm are reached — and where the seeds of new paradigms can be planted and begin to sprout.

    What if we stipulate that we are having a discussion not bound by science?

  24. colewd

    keiths,

    Based on your own experience of repeated failure at TSZ, do you recognize how unqualified you are to render that judgment? Why do you take your scientific judgments seriously, given your lack of ability?

    In this post J-Mac attempts to make one peal of the onion…

    Onions make poor bells, and J-Macs and colewds make poor scientists.

    So all you have is an ad hominem argument. J-Mac’s op isn’t that good.

  25. Kantian NaturalistKantian Naturalist

    colewd:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    What if we stipulate that we are having a discussion not bound by science?

    We can do that, but then we’re not doing what creationists or design theorists take themselves to be doing.

  26. colewd

    Kantian Naturalist,

    We can do that, but then we’re not doing what creationists or design theorists take themselves to be doing.

    I agree, but since this evolution/design subject is always bumping its head against the experimental design boundary maybe it all belongs in philosophy or some other arena. I think guys like Salvador and Mung are ok with this I am not sure about J-Mac but he seems flexible.

  27. colewd

    Allan Miller,

    Whoa there Neddy, rein in the hyperbole! You are categorically saying that natural selection has never been observed?

    Where NS bumps its head is experimentally validating a new feature transition such as wings etc. I propose that we take away the science limitation for this discussion and then my comment retracts automatically.

  28. John HarshmanJohn Harshman

    colewd: Where NS bumps its head is experimentally validating a new feature transition such as wings etc.

    Once again you make your usual mistake, confusing science with experimental science. The second is not the whole of the first.

  29. colewd

    John Harshman,

    Once again you make your usual mistake, confusing science with experimental science. The second is not the whole of the first.

    Experimental science is easily demarcated. Evidence based arguments and “just so” stories get very confused outside of experimental science. For this case I suggest we drop the boundary.

  30. keithskeiths

    colewd,

    Where NS bumps its head is experimentally validating a new feature transition such as wings etc.

    But you’ll arrange a demo in which God designs a new feature for us, correct?

  31. keithskeiths

    colewd,

    So all you have is an ad hominem argument.

    Um, no. I’m just pointing out that it’s silly for you to trust your scientific judgment, given your track record here.

    J-Mac’s op isn’t that good.

    I agree, but I thought you liked it. No?

  32. Neil Rickert

    colewd: i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    Maybe science doesn’t answer those questions. But it does observe curvature of space-time, it does observe charges. And it not only observes these, but it is able to make useful predictions about them. And that ability to make useful predictions is a basis for testing our theories.

    To a scientist’s point of view, saying that these things were magically designed in an invisible way does not answer any scientific questions.

    That you, as a religious person, are interested in completely different questions from those that concern the scientist, was the basis for Gould’s argument about non-overlapping magisteria. Some people disagree with Gould on that. But the particular examples that you mention do not present a conflict between science and your religion.

  33. Neil Rickert

    Alan Fox: Yes, there should be some bar to clear, low enough to avoid the charge of censorship but high enough to avoid the charge of idiocy.

    Unfortunately, it is hard to draw that line.

    In this case, J-Mac is getting some feedback on his ideas. I’m pretty sure that it isn’t the kind of feedback that he expected. But perhaps he will still find it useful.

  34. RumraketRumraket

    So 6000 years ago (or 4 billion?), the Designer (aka God), came to Earth with his giant physics laboratory made by super spacealien technology, and started creating organisms one by one?

    This is the motherloade of just-so stories. Nothing about this bullshit is testable. It’s all completely ad-hoc sci-fi gibberish.

    Amazingly, miraculously, the plot is even worse and more full of holes than Prometheus.

  35. RumraketRumraket

    colewd:
    GlenDavidson,

    Do you agree that quantum entanglement is experimentally validated science?If so then the Star Trek concept is base on science.The concept of teleportation is being discussed by physicists based on the principle of quantum entanglement. Based on this J-Mac has identified an experimentally verified mechanism for his hypothesis. A solid step above Darwinian evolution.

    That’s among the dumbest posts on this site ever. It’s even self-refuting, since the term “darwinian” is an experimentally verified mechanism. FFS Bill.

  36. RumraketRumraket

    colewd: In all science we eventually hit a wall where we can no longer explain cause as we move down the regressive path. i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    Yes, and in that situation we simply say “I don’t know”, we don’t proceed to make shit up ad-hoc and then believe the shit we just made up. I can of course only speak for myself.

    The design hypothesis has always simply been observing design in nature.

    That’s not a hypothesis, that’s an observation. And I don’t see the design at all. It has nothing I recognize as being the product of intelligent designers. “Seeing design” seems to only happen to Richard Dawkins and religious people. Go figure.

    In this post J-Mac attempts to make one peal of the onion and explores a mechanism for how a designer might execute life’s design.

    With quantum teleportation chambers that *send* quantum states to particular atoms between them. That’s awesome, and it’s made up shit and it’s untestable.

    There is no way to experimentally test the claim “a designer used quantum teleportation to induce the quantum-states of a particular atom that made up the physical body of an organism that lived 6000 years ago”.

    Well besides the whole 6000 years ago crap, which is known to be false. To the extent his hypothesis is testable (the implication is all life was created as-is, 6000 yars ago), it’s falsified.
    Notice how his “hypothesis” makes absolutely zero predictions about what we should find in life. Nothing about what kinds of systems there should be, how the genetics works or anything. Nothing about nesting hierarchies or anything It’s all one giant ad-hoc just-so story.

    Even if he somehow worked all that stuff into his quantum-teleportation-story, it would still just be ad-hoc. A story he tells that can’t be verified. There’s NOTHING about the way that organism that live now, reproduce, grow and divide, that somehow indicates that their distant ancestors were quantum-teleported into existence in some superduper quantum-chamber-device.

    I would facepalm as this shit, but I like my face too much.

    He has made a bold attempt here and I think he should receive real feedback.

    Holy fucking shit, that absolutely horseshit he wrote is all it takes to impress you?
    He’s getting exactly the feedback his post merits. Facepalming and head shaking.

  37. OMagain

    colewd: In all science we eventually hit a wall where we can no longer explain cause as we move down the regressive path. i.e. how does gravity bend space time, what is the inherent cause of charge, what is the origin of the electron.

    You are implying that something else other then science can take over and continue to provide explanations at that point. Well, feel free, go ahead and do so!

    What is the origin of the electron colewd? Is it Jesus?

Leave a Reply