God and Creation

At Creation week what did God do on the eighth day and what has mankind thought he did? Important answer follows.

The bible clearly says God created everything in six days and on the seventh day rested.

So what did he do on the eight day?

The answer is there was no eighth day. He was finished with creation as far as he created.

This means ever since creation has been running on its own. No more creation or control or tweaking even. YES god allowed changed in biology like women gaining birthpains and snakes, all biology, changing body plans and other details in physics. Yet these are not creating events. Just a slight manipulation in unknown ways. Yet he didn’t add anything to creation.

Mankind, all religions including Christianity, have got this wrong. All have presumed God(s) created and continued to create and control the universe and nature. If one listens one hears always how God is doing this or that in nature.

Yet he was clear he doesn’t control nature. The beast or machine controls itself without his assistance.

Yet even since the 1500’s many folks have seen, tried to interpret, the discovery of how nature/universe runs itself as a great rejection of the bible’s claim of Gods control. Even if religious believers themselves. They thought they needed to save God from rejection by stressing his creation but non involvement as if a new insight.Then in later centuries many of those involved/interested in the universe/nature persuade themselves there is no God or evidence of God because of in action. As if to say IF there is a God he should be working.yet the lack of action from God and the complete control of the universe/nature as a machine would be predicted if God truly stopped on the sixth day and there was no eight day. All the spin to show God is not involved in biology or physics etc etc is just what Genesis said. Genesis never said God was involved in creating or controlling the universe. Just minor drive bys of manipulation.

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100 thoughts on “God and Creation

  1. So Robert, what do you have to say about passages in the bible that show God’s clear involvement in nature, such as deciding who will be born blind or forming the psalmist in the womb?

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  2. Mankind, all religions including Christianity, have got this wrong. All have presumed God(s) created and continued to create and control the universe and nature. If one listens one hears always how God is doing this or that in nature.

    Yet he was clear he doesn’t control nature. The beast or machine controls itself without his assistance.

    What about bringing back Lazarus? Loaves and fishes? Red sea parting? Never happened?

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  3. Mung:
    So Robert, what do you have to say about passages in the bible that show God’s clear involvement in nature, such as deciding who will be born blind or forming the psalmist in the womb?

    Or flooding Earth.

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  4. newton,

    For some reason, I can’t help thinking here about the Monty Python routine, State Your Claim. The one that goes something like this:

    “Welcome to our show. Please begin by stating your claim!”
    “I wrote Shakespeare’s plays.”
    “You wrote Shakespeare’s plays?”
    “That’s right. And my wife and I wrote his sonnets.”
    “How is that possible? Shakespeare wrote those works hundreds of years ago and they’ve been performed ever since. But neither you nor your wife can be more than 60 years old!”
    [Pause] “Ah, well–you’ve got me there.”

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  5. Robert’s point seems to be that creative acts of God have ceased. I’m waiting for him to start calling creative acts destructive yet beneficial.

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  6. walto,
    You need to understand that it is creating that is hard work. Birth pains, death of the firstborn, Red Sea, crucified alter ego, they’re all “drive by” tinkering.
    OTOH, I gotta believe the Deluge was work. Sodom and Gomorrah too.

    Any moron with a pack of matches can start a fire. Raining down sulfur, that’s like an endurance trial. Mass genocide is the most exhausting activity one can engage in, next to soccer.

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  7. Mung:
    Robert’s point seems to be that creative acts of God have ceased.

    A rather curious point for a self-labelled Canadian ‘creationist’.

    It doesn’t seem like Byers has heard of concurrentism.

    Then again, he doesn’t seem to realise one can devoutly believe in divine Creation yet at the same time without self-labelling as a ‘creationist’ either.

    Gerald Butts must be responsible for keeping that hidden from him. = P

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  8. Apparently God’s post creation rest was not absolute

    quote:

    And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
    (Joh 5:16-17)

    and

    Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
    (Joh 14:10)

    end quote:

    peace

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  9. Doesn’t the Bible explicitly say that God at times does entirely new things in the universe?

    quote:
    Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.
    (Isa 43:19)
    end quote:

    I think perhaps you are trying to point out the difference between “create” found in Gen 1:1 and “make” found in the rest of scripture.

    There is a large difference between “create” and “make” but it’s not the difference between work and rest.

    If you want to really get a handle on what God’s rest is I suggest you read the book of Hebrews especially chapters 3 and 4 .

    peace

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  10. I claim that the apparent decline in the occurrence of miracles is prima facie evidence that the deity suffers under the Second Law of Thermodynamics, same as the rest of us.

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  11. timothya: I claim that the apparent decline in the occurrence of miracles is prima facie evidence that the deity suffers under the Second Law of Thermodynamics, same as the rest of us.

    Hmm, and I had thought it was because God was afraid of scientists. (The decline in miracles seems to correspond to the growth in science).

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  12. Neil Rickert: Hmm, and I had thought it was because God was afraid of scientists.(The decline in miracles seems to correspond to the growth in science).

    Nahhh, its just his wind-up mainspring running down.

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  13. Mung:
    So Robert, what do you have to say about passages in the bible that show God’s clear involvement in nature, such as deciding who will be born blind or forming the psalmist in the womb?

    Okay.
    The bible says all creation moves through god but it is CREATION. created and existing.
    People grow in our mothers by biological effects and errors thereof.
    god doesn’t make people blind, i know about sight problems for sure, but only in a great way of authority is involved. in fact Satan/possibly general decay do all the blinding.
    Even jesus healing the blind was not creation. just manipulation.
    the example of him using dirt once as case in point.
    the end of creation on the sixth day was finale.
    Everything since has run on its own. god in control is a greater control beyond the actual practical creation.
    otherwise even on the seventh day he would of been still creating. when he clearly said he was not and at rest.

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  14. walto: What about bringing back Lazarus? Loaves and fishes? Red sea parting? Never happened?

    Not creating. Just recycling.

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  15. DNA_Jock,

    Its possible the flood came from Satan and not god though he takes credit, as it were, as all still needs his permission. remember the book of Job.
    no creation is going on but manipulation of creation.
    Its like recycling.

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  16. fifthmonarchyman,

    Works is not the unique act of creation. Creation was real and complicated. God rested because he was done. Finished.
    No eighth day. Anything else is recycling.

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  17. Neil Rickert: Hmm, and I had thought it was because God was afraid of scientists.(The decline in miracles seems to correspond to the growth in science).

    Remember science is just intelligence and followed the curve of rising intelligence which came from reforming protestantism.
    Science is a evangelical protestant creation or rather Gods idea for those of the true faith. everyone else is a johnny come lately.

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  18. hey. Its unexpected people would expect the bible said god is creating/controling things on the planet!
    Thats my hunch.
    For centuries now too many laboured under the impression the bible taught gods involvement in nature/universe. In fact it taught the opposite.
    its a crated machine and runs itself completly. He can just yinker with results in product. Proving the orbits, DNA, anything works by itself is not a new idea or rejection of Christianity.
    Just poor understanding of Genesis clear statemements.
    No Hebrew would of though God was moving the clouds or the moon or growing trees WHO was aware of genesis.

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  19. Robert Byers: Not creating. Just recycling.

    I like the idea of recycling the Red Sea.

    Oh, by the way, which Red Sea do you think was parted for the Israelites?

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  20. Robert Byers: Remember science is just intelligence and followed the curve of rising intelligence which came from reforming protestantism.
    Science is a evangelical protestant creation or rather Gods idea for those of the true faith. everyone else is a johnny come lately.

    Tell me, Robert, why do you think the majority of visible stars in the skies have Arabic names?

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  21. Robert Byers:
    fifthmonarchyman,

    Well its about creation. We use the computer but we don’t create it or create more things on it.

    We don’t “create” computers? It might be time to read over your words before you post them.

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  22. It might be time to ignore this angel-pin-dancing thread. is there a WordPress function that allows you to ignore a thread, as opposed to a user?

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  23. timothya: I claim that the apparent decline in the occurrence of miracles is prima facie evidence that the deity suffers under the Second Law of Thermodynamics, same as the rest of us.

    Miracles are just very improbable events associated in some way with redemptive history. That is why you find them clustered around events like the exodus and the ministry of Christ and not so much at other times and places.

    peace

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  24. Robert Byers: Well its about creation. We use the computer but we don’t create it or create more things on it.

    I make things on the computer though right?

    Create has the connotation of Ex nihilo while when we make things we use preexisting materials.

    peace

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  25. Robert Byers: hey. Its unexpected people would expect the bible said god is creating/controling things on the planet!
    Thats my hunch.

    Perhaps it’s because the Bible says things like this

    quote:
    For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
    (Rom 11:36)

    and

    and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
    (Heb 1:3 B )

    end quote;

    peace

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  26. fifthmonarchyman: Create has the connotation of Ex nihilo while when we make things we use preexisting materials.

    quote:
    Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
    (Gen 2:5)

    and

    So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib
    (Gen 2:19)

    end quote;

    😉

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  27. fifthmonarchyman: Miracles are just very improbable events associated in some way with redemptive history. That is why you find them clustered around events like the exodus and the ministry of Christ and not so much at other times and places.

    peace

    Can you explain the Flying Monk Miracle in your terms? And while you are at it, can you explain what you mean by “redemptive history”?

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  28. fifthmonarchyman: Miracles are just very improbable events associated in some way with redemptive history. That is why you find them clustered around events like the exodus and the ministry of Christ and not so much at other times and places.

    peace

    Ummmm no, in your own terms, miracles are not simply “improbable events”, they are acts of your deity. So why are they happening so much less frequently now than in past times?

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  29. Alan Fox:
    timothya, Wow! All we need now is God to intervene on Brexit.

    The last time God miraculously intervened in the affairs of the British Government was when Boris Johnson got appointed as Foreign Minister.

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  30. Why is making new stuff hard for a deity, even requiring rest afterwards, but recycling easy-peasy?

    And anyhow, what is the significance of this theory if God is still mucking around in things, working miracles? Why are you concerned about some conservation of matter principle? What’s the theological significance, if it’s not a watchmaker deist claim?

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  31. walto:
    Why s creation hard for a deity, even requiring rest afterwards, but ‘recycling easy-peasy?

    Why does a deity even need to rest? It is supposed to be omnipotent, after all.

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  32. timothya: Why does a deity even need to rest? It is supposed to be omnipotent, after all.

    Maybe it is logically impossible not to take an occasional nap.

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  33. timothya: Why does a deity even need to rest?

    In order to model rest for his people in connection with the sabbath and the eventual New Covenant.

    peace

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  34. fifthmonarchyman: In order to model rest for his people in connection with the sabbath and the eventual New Covenant.

    It would have been useful if your deity had modelled overtime payments and double time for Sunday shift work.

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  35. fifthmonarchyman: In order to model rest for his people

    I’m not comfortable with the way he “modeled rest” tbh. I mean, how long did he get after his six whole days work?

    And what kind of pillows were involved?

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  36. Robert Byers,

    This is the kind of thread that reveals the blasphemers & anti-religious among skeptics. The rest just don’t care or feel a need to say they don’t care, while mocking one of only a few Abrahamic theists who post here.

    I repeat this to Robert Byers in case he might one day come to terms with it: one can devoutly believe in divine Creation yet at the same time without self-labelling as a ‘creationist’ or requiring a ‘young earth’. This seems to be a key insight that Robert won’t face, as it might open a door to a religious worldview he doesn’t know exists from within the safe, sheltered confines of his charismatic denomination.

    “Science is a evangelical protestant creation or rather Gods idea for those of the true faith. everyone else is a johnny come lately.” – Robert Byers

    Hmm, that’s an ‘interesting’ view of history. So evangelical protestantism is somehow older than the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches? Did North Americans come first and settle Europe instead of the other way around too? = P

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  37. walto: I’m not comfortable with the way he “modeled rest”

    Perhaps that is because you are not one of his people
    😉
    peace

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  38. Gregory: So evangelical protestantism is somehow older than the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches?

    Evangelical just means “of the Gospel” and Protestants were protesting the Church of Rome’s departure from the Gospel.

    So in that sense Evangelical Protestantism is much older than the Roman or Orthodox Churches.

    I love you Gregory and you may disagree but you have got to understand that your own particular limited perspective is not arbitrator of what Christianity is anymore than Robert’s or mine is.

    That authority belongs to Christ alone.

    peace

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  39. fifthmonarchyman,

    Sorry, I don’t accept that “of the Gospel” means “evangelical protestant.” And likely the vast majority of Christians around the world wouldn’t either.

    Let’s get this straight so this “you have got to understand” can be clarified.

    You said “Protestants were protesting the Church of Rome’s departure from the Gospel.” Yes, it’s rather well known. Yet while this supposed ‘departure’ is debatable (and the counter-Reformation part of that conversation along with schismatic Protestant denominationalism), I think you at least will acknowledge that this started happening by ‘Protestants’ in the 16th century. Do you disagree? https://www.etymonline.com/word/protestant

    Btw, do also agree with me that, one can devoutly believe in divine Creation yet at the same time without self-labelling as a ‘creationist’ or requiring a ‘young earth’? Byers has shown in the past that he won’t answer it. Will you?

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  40. Gregory: you at least will acknowledge that this started happening by ‘Protestants’ in the 16th century.

    Well not exactly. The church has existed since the first century and it has always been a little flock persecuted by “powers” and “authorities” and boldly speaking God’s truth to power so in that sense we were always protestants.

    On the other hand lots of folks who share my general convictions also hold that they definitely are not protestants because they don’t want to be associated with those folks from the 16th century.

    https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/why_baptists_are_not_protestants.htm

    Gregory: Btw, do also agree with me that, one can devoutly believe in divine Creation yet at the same time without self-labelling as a ‘creationist’

    I think you can believe lots of things while claiming not to or not wanting to be associated with like minded individuals for various reasons.

    Gregory: or requiring a ‘young earth’?

    There are Creationists who believe in a very young earth and Creationists who believe in an eternal earth and almost any duration in between.

    There are even Creationists who believe in a young earth that looks like an old earth and those who believe in an old earth that was recreated rather recently.

    There are interesting Bible studies in every city where this stuff is fleshed out I don’t think there is any reason to waste time here on such topics.

    I do think that grouping people into us verses them for anything less than the gospel is just plain silly.

    peace

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