Excilience and Contextomy

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consilience. : the linking together of principles from different disciplines especially when forming a comprehensive theory.

contextomy. : an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. Quote mining.

excilience. : the linking together of Contextomies from different disciplines especially when forming a comprehensive theory. Thought mining.

The Quote Mine Project provides excellent examples of contextomy. Uncommondescent provides excellent examples of excilience.

The practices lend themselves to all kinds of humorous incongruities. Among them are:

1. free will vs predestination
2. deism vs interventionism (Michael Denton vs Michael Behe)
3. front loading vs twiddling (Mike Gene vs gpuccio, etc.)
4. ascentism vs degenerationism (Chardin vs Sanford)
5. old earth vs young earth
6. realism vs last thursdayism
7. biblical literalism vs inspirationism

There are probably a lot more, but these come up frequently. The humor comes from observing that the armies of ID clash by night, without ever mentioning or discussing their differences and their contradictory assumptions and conclusions.

Food for discussion.

361 thoughts on “Excilience and Contextomy”

  1. faded_glory asks:

    Say there is a quote from a known and knowledgeable anti-creationist. How can such a quote, when seen in context, ever support creationism?

    I really find this utterly baffling. I am, no shit, astounded that you guys actually think that if the “context” is that “Joe doesn’t support creationism”, then nothing Joe says can be quoted in support of creationism.

    Seriously. Think about it. That means you guys cannot quote IDists or creationists to make points or arguments that the creationist disagrees with.

    Whether or not Joe supports creationism is not, in any way, part of “the context” that is relevant to quote mining, unless the quoter tries to use that quote to portray Joe as a creationist supporter. Then you have a case of quote mining. Or, if Joe says that there are large numbers of transitional fossils, and the creationist uses a particular quote to make it seem that Joe said the opposite, that also would be a valid quote mine.

    In no cases mentioned above did the quoter attempt to portray the quotee as supporting creationism or as anti-evolutionist. They used the quotes only to demonstrate that an asserted fact (such as: transitional fossils are rare) is agreed upon even by anti-creationists. That is all the quotes are used for – to demonstrate such facts as agreed-upon. Those facts are then used to make a creationist argument.

    So, the context of the original quote, in how it relates to the way the creationist is using it, is an assertion or agreement of a certain fact. Nothing more. That is exactly how the quote is used – to establish a particular, agreed fact. Once again, it in no way indicates or implies that the person being quoted agrees with the argument or the conclusions of the creationist. Thus, the context (establishment of an agreed-upon fact) is fully intact and used precisely as that and nothing more.

    Is the anti-creationist so dumb that he doesn’t understand his own arguments? Is that likely when it comes to highly qualified professionals like Gould?

    Anti-creationists may not like it when creationists quote them to support a creationist point, but so what? Unless the creationist is trying to portray the anti-creationist as creationist, or is misrepresenting the factual nature represented in the quote, it’s not quote-mining.

    Isn’t it far more likely that the person who claims that the quote somehow supports creationism simply doesn’t understand, or prefers to ignore, the evolutionist’s overall argument, of which the quoted bit is only a part and not the whole?

    It’s up to the creationist to make their case as to whether or not the information in the quote supports his/her argument, and it is up to the other camp to give the other side a charitable hearing. The idea that information provided by anti-creationists cannot be used by creationists simply because that information comes from anti-creationists is absurd. Please think about what you are saying.

    And if this is the case, is presenting the quote without the context of the overall argument, not stupid and/or dishonest?

    In this case, all that is being established is that a certain fact is agreed upon by both camps. It is stupid or dishonest to try to claim that it’s a case of quote-mining. To establish that a fact is agreed upon – the rarity of transitional fossils – all that is needed is that quote – unless, if in a fuller context, the quotee is in fact saying that there are, in fact, an abundance of transitional fossils. That is the only way the quote would be misleading. But, that’s not the case here.

    Now, if the creationist wants to make an argument that rests on the same facts that the evolutionist used when he made his argument, that is of course no problem.

    Exactly. Since that is exactly what appears to be going on the above cases and there is no evidence to the contrary, and since debates and arguments are made assuming best and good intent (charity), then as you say, it is no problem.

    But then, what is the point of referring to the evolutionist in the first place?

    To establish that the fact in question is agreed to by both camps.

    What weight does that add to the argument? Why drag in an authority even if it is known that he doesn’t agree with the creationist argument? Why not simply refer to the scientific papers where these facts are published?

    Why not use an authority from the other camp to demonstrate that the fact in question is agreed to by both camps? Unless you imply that they agree with your argument or conclusion, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with this – anti-creationists themselves do this all the time to establish what creationists admit to or agree with in order to make their anti-creationist arguments. This is common practice in any argument. How many times have Behe and Dembski been quoted in order to make a case against their conclusions?

    For god’s sake, think, man! Just because you dislike that creationists use quotes from anti-creationists to support creationism, that doesn’t mean they are quote-mining.

    I’ll tell you why: because the creationist isn’t engaged in science, he is engaged in politics whilst pretending to do science. And that is why we object.

    Your personal characterizations of the motivation of creationists is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a quote is a case of quote-mining, but it appears to reveal the motivation behind calling legitimate use of quotes “quote-mining”; you don’t agree with what the quotes are being used for.

    Boo hoo hoo.

  2. William J. Murray: Your personal characterizations of the motivation of creationists is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a quote is a case of quote-mining, but it appears to reveal the motivation behind calling legitimate use of quotes “quote-mining”; you don’t agree with what the quotes are being used for.

    Keep digging.

  3. William J. Murray:

    I really find this utterly baffling.I am, no shit, astounded that you guys actually think that if the “context” is that “Joe doesn’t support creationism”, then nothing Joe says can be quoted in support of creationism.

    LOL! Time for William J “sure I said it but I didn’t say it” Murray to break out the rocket powered goal posts! Seems he’s realized his defense of dishonest quote mining is failing miserably so it’s time for some squid ink and a twisting away from the definition of quote mining.

  4. William J. Murray:
    faded_glory asks:I really find this utterly baffling.I am, no shit, astounded that you guys actually think that if the “context” is that “Joe doesn’t support creationism”, then nothing Joe says can be quoted in support of creationism.

    But we all understand that nothing Joe says DOES support creationism, since Joe knows better. Making it LOOK like Joe supports creationism is dishonest.

    Look, if it’s a matter of interpreting the facts, there is no need to quote Joe at all. Just get the facts from the same place Joe did, and make your case. Why bother to quote Joe, except to make it look like Joe agrees with you?

    You are utterly baffled, no shit astounded, that deliberately and knowingly creating a totally false impression of Joe’s position is improper, even slightly. OF COURSE it’s honest to comb the literature looking for statements which can be misrepresented, so you can say “See? Even Joe agrees with me.”

  5. GlenDavidson said:

    It’s really amazing how wrong William is about almost everything he’s complaining about there.

    ROFL! Given that several people here have stated the exact position on quote-mining I’m “complaining’ about, I hardly think so.

    What’s sad is that you apparently don’t even realize that what you’ve said about that site makes it even worse! When I started reading it, I assumed the would start each case by presenting a creationist quoter and how the used the quote, then show how the quote was mischaracterized.

    But they’re not even doing that!! They’re essentially just setting up a pavlovian response by listing quotes that creationists use and then simply insisting that if a creationist uses them, then ipso facto they are quote mines.

    This is apparently what Barber meant when he said:

    So we see that Gould et al. don’t reject evolution, but claim that phyletic evolution takes a second seat to speciation.

    … as if what any creationist must mean when they quote Gould is that Gould “rejects evolution”. OMG!!

    The Quote Mine Project, then, is just set up as to de-legitimize any creationist use of non-creationist quotes by asserting that any such use is “quote-mining”.

    Pitiful.

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  7. William J. Murray: I really find this utterly baffling. I am, no shit, astounded that you guys actually think that if the “context” is that “Joe doesn’t support creationism”, then nothing Joe says can be quoted in support of creationism.

    That’s another misunderstanding.

    If you quote “Joe” using the form of an argument from authority, presenting “Joe” as an authority, when “Joe” is actually opposed to the position you are arguing, then you are seriously misrepresenting “Joe” and you are being dishonest.

    If, on the other hand, you quote “Joe” as part of an argument you are having with “Joe”, and you are quoting to point to an inconsistency in “Joe”‘s reasoning. then I don’t see a problem with that.

  8. Flint said:

    But we all understand that nothing Joe says DOES support creationism, since Joe knows better. Making it LOOK like Joe supports creationism is dishonest.

    Nobody is making it look like Joe supports creationism. All anyone is doing is establishing that Joe agrees with the creationist that “X” is a fact. Nothing more whatsoever has been demonstrated to be going on.

  9. William J. Murray: This is apparently what Barber meant when he said:… as if what any creationist must mean when they quote Gould is that Gould “rejects evolution”. OMG!!

    I find it hard to believe you are serious.

    The creationist position here is that transitions from one species to another are either rare or nonexistent. The challenge is to find evidence that this is the case. Now, what counts as evidence?

    Aha! We find Gould talking about the nature of the fossil record. Gould argues that such transitions have happened by the countless billions, but because transitions are both rapid and local, and because fossilization is so rare, the probability of fossilization capturing such a transition is extremely small.

    NOW, how can we misrepresent Gould as supporting the position that such transitions are rare or nonexistent? Oh look, Gould wrote that the fossil record largely fails to record such events. If we carefully leave out the part about fossilization, and just pick the words where Gould says “transitions are rare”, we can make it LOOK like Gould supports our position! Kewl!!

    And sure enough, this Gould quote has been used countless times by creationists, who are talking about species transitions while Gould is talking about fossilization, to claim Gould secretly believes transitions don’t happen, and we caught him admitting it!

    Pitiful indeed.

  10. Neil said:

    That’s another misunderstanding.

    No, that’s wha some of you have actually said, and continue to say.

    If you quote “Joe” using the form of an argument from authority,

    But that’s not what happened. Joe is being quoted to establish an agreed-upon fact, period. Joe is not being quoted to support the argument, but to establish that the facts referred to in the argument are agreed-upon.

    …presenting “Joe” as an authority, when “Joe” is actually opposed to the position you are arguing, then you are seriously misrepresenting “Joe” and you are being dishonest.

    Unless you can show me where a creationist uses a quote in a way that implies that the quotee agrees with anything more than the specific fact or area of agreement, then you are committing a non-charitable reading by assuming motivations that are not evidenced. Whether or not Joe agrees with the argument or conclusion is completely detached from whether or not Joe agrees with a fact used in the argument.

    If, on the other hand, you quote “Joe” as part of an argument you are having with “Joe”, and you are quoting to point to an inconsistency in “Joe”‘s reasoning. then I don’t see a problem with that.

    So, by your definition of quote-mining, E Liddle quoting Behe or Dembski here in order to make a case against their position is an example of quote-mining?

  11. http://www.anointed-one.net/quotes.html

    Take a look and tell me if the site is making an argument and fairly presenting the original authors.

    After reading these words from evolutionists, would you say the evidence points more towards spontaneous generation and evolution or divine creation?

    If the answer is creation, who created it? There is only one person in recorded history who claims to be the eternal creator of the universe who had no beginning. He is the Anointed One.

  12. William J. Murray:
    Flint said:Nobody is making it look like Joe supports creationism.

    Bullshit. The whole point was to make it look like Joe supports creationism. Be honest.

    All anyone is doing is establishing that Joe agrees with the creationist that “X” is a fact. Nothing more whatsoever has been demonstrated to be going on.

    Then why bother with Joe at all? Just cite the fact (and your source for it) and leave Joe out of it.

  13. Flint said:

    NOW, how can we misrepresent Gould as supporting the position that such transitions are rare or nonexistent?

    Again, imagining the motivation behind presenting a quote does nothing to establish that it is a case of quote-mining. Unless you have evidence that this is how the quote was used (by providing more context in what the quoter wrote) – to make it look as if Gould agreed that actual transitions are rare (as opposed to the rarity of fossils demonstrating transitions) – then you have no case for quote-mining.

  14. William J. Murray: So, by your definition of quote-mining, E Liddle quoting Behe or Dembski here in order to make a case against their position is an example of quote-mining?

    If she is quoting them in such a way as to make it look like they are saying something she knows they are not, then yes, that’s dishonest. If she is quoting them in order to present their position as faithfully as possible, and THEN disagree with it, that’s fine.

  15. Those sites I listed (there are some false positives) list ten or more quotes from the quote mine project without any commentary. they simply present the naked quotes and ask the reader to assume the original author is presenting evidence against evolution.

  16. William J. Murray:
    Unless you have evidence that this is how the quote was used (by providing more context in what the quoter wrote) – to make it look as if Gould agreed that actual transitions are rare (as opposed to the rarity of fossils demonstrating transitions) – then you have no case for quote-mining.

    I agree. But unfortunately, that’s exactly what happened.

  17. Bullshit. The whole point was to make it look like Joe supports creationism. Be honest.

    I think implying that I’m not being honest is against the rules, and only an utter moron would think that was any part of the point of the quote.

  18. Flint said:

    I agree. But unfortunately, that’s exactly what happened.

    No such evidence has been presented.

  19. William J. Murray:
    Flint said:No such evidence has been presented.

    Again, bullshit. Why would Gould, a virulent anti-creationist, be so often quoted as presenting “facts” in support of a creationist position Gould is known to have rejected vehemently? Gould wrote whole essays about the creationist practice of extracting his statements out of context. Somehow, creationists always forget about this.

    Gould was quoted here in support of the argument against transitions. NOT in support of anything to do with fossilization.

  20. William J. Murray: But that’s not what happened. Joe is being quoted to establish an agreed-upon fact, period.

    Nonsense. The proper way to establish a fact, is to post an appropriate citation of the source of the fact. Citing an opinion, expecting people to “infer” a fact from that opinion, is just wrong.

  21. If I was to make a creationist argument, I would begin by establishing that certain facts that I will be using in my argument are agreed upon by leading proponents of evolution. Merely pointing to some research paper is not enough to establish that leading evolutionists agree to the facts I will be using. The weight of authority is used in establishing those facts by referring to an agreement of authorities who are committed against with my position to begin with, which lends weight not to my argument, but to the facts I will be using for the argument I am making.

    This is an entirely valid use of quotes from authorities. No reasonable, intelligent person can call such use “quote-mining”, and it would be moronic to suggest that I am attempting to paint those authorities as supporting my argument simply because I use them to establish the validity of the facts I am using for my argument.

  22. Neil said:

    Nonsense. The proper way to establish a fact, is to post an appropriate citation of the source of the fact. Citing an opinion, expecting people to “infer” a fact from that opinion, is just wrong.

    That’s not the proper way to establish that a fact is agreed upon by both sides of the argument. Citing a research paper or two doesn’t establish that the data/info used is accepted by both sides of the argument as a matter of fact.

  23. Flint said:

    Why would Gould, a virulent anti-creationist, be so often quoted as presenting “facts” in support of a creationist position Gould is known to have rejected vehemently?

    It is precisely because Gould is “a virulent anti-creationist” that he should be quoted when establishing that a fact is agreed upon by both sides of the argument, because Gould would never admit to data being a fact that could even remotely be used to support a creationist argument unless it was, indeed, a scientific fact that even he cannot deny.

    Only a moron would think anyone is trying to portray Gould as supporting creationism. Good grief.

  24. petrushka,

    Those sites I listed (there are some false positives) list ten or more quotes from the quote mine project without any commentary. they simply present the naked quotes and ask the reader to assume the original author is presenting evidence against evolution.

    I predict a response similar to that we’ve seen from IDists before:

    “These articles are excellent articles I assume. However, they do not address the question that I am posing. So it’s not that they aren’t good enough. It’s simply that they are addressed to a different subject.”
    — Michael Behe, on the stand in Dover

  25. William J. Murray: That’s not the proper way to establish that a fact is agreed upon by both sides of the argument.

    There’s rarely a need to “establish that a fact is agreed upon by both sides of the argument”.

    What is really happening, is an attempt to establish that a particular interpretation of a fact (or facts) is agreed on. And when that particular interpretation is not actually agreed on, then this is a dishonest move.

  26. Flint:

    Look, if it’s a matter of interpreting the facts, there is no need to quote Joe at all. Just get the facts from the same place Joe did, and make your case. Why bother to quote Joe, except to make it look like Joe agrees with you?

    Exactly my point, which completely went over Murray’s head.

    It is ok to quote Gould if you want to argue against what he says. It is also ok to quote Gould in support of a position that he too supports. It is not ok to invoke Gould to bolster a position that he does not support himself. If you want to use some facts that he uses for one position to argue for something else, especially if it is the opposite of what Gould actually believes, go and quote the original source of those facts. Leave Gould out of it, and don’t associate him with your argument if it isn’t his too. That is where things become dishonest.

    Really, it is that simple.

    fG

  27. William J. Murray: I think implying that I’m not being honest is against the rules, and only an utter moron would think that was any part of the point of the quote.

    Just to be clear, I have not implied that you are being dishonest. In an earlier post in this thread, I said that your post “actually looks like a quote mine.” I did not assert that it was a quote mine. I never thought you were being dishonest. Rather, I thought that you misunderstood what you were reading and quoting, and it was that quoting of something that you did not understand that had the appearance of a quote mine.

  28. William J. Murray:

    It is precisely because Gould is “a virulent anti-creationist” that he should be quoted when establishing that a fact is agreed upon by both sides of the argument, because Gould would never admit to data being a fact that could even remotely be used to support a creationist argument unless it was, indeed, a scientific fact that even he cannot deny.

    If you didn’t make the fallacy from authority (claiming that something is true because an authority like Gould says it) but instead argued from the facts , this entire problem would go away instantly. Keep your reasoning straight, avoid fallacies, and you will never be accused of quote-mining.

  29. Neil Rickert: What is really happening, is an attempt to establish that a particular interpretation of a fact (or facts) is agreed on.

    That is not the case at all. To make that case, you need to show that the written explanation of the quote is inaccurate. Otherwise it is up to the reader to read the quote for himself and decide what it means to them. That is exactly the point William has made. That no case has been made that the quote was used incorrectly.

    Since the quote is there for all to see, its not a game of trickery. If Gould for example says that small, incremental mutations could not have caused the changes to organisms we see, then a creationist is certainly free to use this as evidence against evolution. If Gould still believes evolution is true despite this discrepancy, that changes nothing in regards to him saying the incremental mutations are not sufficient to cause this.

  30. phoodoo: Otherwise it is up to the reader to read the quote for himself and decide what it means to them.

    Then don’t quote. Instead, make a reference to the original source so that the readers can study it themselves in the original context.

  31. Neil Rickert,

    Haha…why? If someone wants to claim the quote doesn’t mean what it appears to, because it was taken completely out of context, they can make that claim and provide evidence to support that. Otherwise the quote is what it is.

    Just because you don’t like quotes, that doesn’t mean it is “quote mining” to provide examples of specific points.

  32. petrushka,

    I didn’t read all the quotes. Some of them may be examples of quote-mining (I would have to read the entire context to see if what was specifically quoted was misrepresented). I don’t think the people who posted that page are trying to portray any of those scientists as being supporters of creationism, but rather as admitting facts that are inconvenient to various aspects or iterations of evolutionary theory.

    There is no argument being presented, nor are there any explicit characterizations being made. Conclusions are left up to the reader. Generally, I would call this sort of thing as propaganda and read it as such.

  33. faded_glory said:

    If you didn’t make the fallacy from authority (claiming that something is true because an authority like Gould says it) but instead argued from the facts , this entire problem would go away instantly.

    But nobody is claiming that the thing is true because an authority says so; they are claiming that the facts used in the argument are agreed to by pre-eminent evolutionary biologists. To show that such facts are agreed to, that is exactly what they must do – quote people like Gould agreeing that X is a fact.

  34. Neil Rickert: What is really happening, is an attempt to establish that a particular interpretation of a fact (or facts) is agreed on. And when that particular interpretation is not actually agreed on, then this is a dishonest move.

    No evidence has been supplied that supports this.

  35. William J. Murray:
    faded_glory said:But nobody is claiming that the thing is true because an authority says so; they are claiming that the facts used in the argument are agreed to by pre-eminent evolutionary biologists. To show that such facts are agreed to, that is exactly what they must do – quote people like Gould agreeing that X is a fact.

    What Gould was REPRESENTED as agreeing to, is that transitions are extremely rare. This is NOT Gould’s position. If you think transitions are actually rare, produce the facts showing it. Misrepresenting Gould’s comment on the nature of fossilization is NOT support for your position. You are making believe Gould agrees with your “fact” when he was actually saying something entirely different.

  36. William J. Murray:
    GlenDavidson said:

    ROFL!Given that several people here have stated the exact position on quote-mining I’m “complaining’ about, I hardly think so.

    Oh, so you don’t understand, then it’s all right because some (perhaps, I didn’t read that much) go along with it. If you didn’t start out by fundamentally misunderstanding the issue and falsely charging with your usual stereotyping, something might have been gained.

    What’s sad is that you apparently don’t even realize that what you’ve said about that site makes it even worse!

    They provide a resource you don’t understand, so it’s even worse. Why, because of your incompetence?

    When I started reading it, I assumed the would start each case by presenting a creationist quoter and how the used the quote, then show how the quote was mischaracterized.

    Yes, because you don’t understand how well tiresome the constant quote-mining was on the web for a while. Most of it hardly required presenting a case, it was just “Gould said this” or “Eldredge said that.”

    But they’re not even doing that!!They’re essentially just setting up a pavlovian response by listing quotes that creationists use and then simply insisting that if a creationist uses them, then ipso facto they are quote mines.

    So false, so Williamesque. Many of these were cheap quotemines passed around by creationists, often without references, almost always without context. I linked to one example, but you don’t respond to it, merely restate your appalling and baseless misunderstanding. Your mischaracterization has nothing to do with the reality, everything to do with you sticking to your incorrect position against the truth that so little informs your positions.

    This is apparently what Barber meant when he said:

    … as if what any creationist must mean when they quote Gould is that Gould “rejects evolution”. OMG!!

    False again. One instance of the point is that, like at least one of the examples to which I linked, Gould was frequently quotemined as saying that transitions are rarely found, which referred to species, when he explicitly noted the many transitions between classes. He stated his displeasure quite directly at one point, and the fact that you don’t know about these matters–as you were writing other woo at the time–is no excuse for your muddled and ignorant attacks now.

    The Quote Mine Project, then, is just set up as to de-legitimize any creationist use of non-creationist quotes by asserting that any such use is “quote-mining”.

    You only say that because you’re ignoring both the explicit examples to which I linked and the rest of the context. Your repeated mischaracterization is inexcusable. You were too pathetic even to realize that Wilkins was fighting the quotemines.

    The fact is that you’re taking the entire Quotemine Project out of a context that you never understood. You charge in with your ignorance and throw out whatever charges seem fit to your lack of knowledge, heedless of what has truly transpired.

    Pitiful.

    Yes, pitiful again, but you have even less excuse for your pitifully false claims now than you had yesterday.

    Glen Davidson

  37. William J. Murray: No evidence has been supplied that supports this.

    This is unfortunately true. Gould’s entire lifelong body of work supports this, but somehow the creationists forgot to mention it.

  38. William J. Murray:

    But nobody is claiming that the thing is true because an authority says so; they are claiming that the facts used in the argument are agreed to by pre-eminent evolutionary biologists. To show that such facts are agreed to, that is exactly what they must do – quote people like Gould agreeing that X is a fact.

    So what? In a scientific discussion it doesn’t matter who agrees with whom. Nobody cares if Gould agrees with what you say, or not, insofar as he is not the original source for the facts he mentions. His views have no impact on the validity of your arguments. All that matters is on what facts and reasoning your arguments are based. References are there to help people to find and understand the facts, and duplicate findings if they so choose. They are not there to awe opponents because Authority Gould happens to say the same thing you say. Unless he is an original researcher who establishes a new finding, his views don’t matter a jot.

    That you think it matters in a debate about origins that Gould agrees with creationists on something, shows that what you are engaging in is politics, not scientific discourse.

    fG

  39. What Gould was REPRESENTED as agreeing to, is that transitions are extremely rare.

    Nope.

  41. Flint: This is unfortunately true. Gould’s entire lifelong body of work supports this, but somehow the creationists forgot to mention it.

    That doesn’t even make sense.

  42. The humor comes from observing that the armies of ID clash by night, without ever mentioning or discussing their differences and their contradictory assumptions and conclusions.

    That’s why they should visit TSZ so they can be set straight.

  43. Flint: This is exactly what Gould was being quoted in support of.

    His quote was used to establish the fact that tranisitional fossils are rare is agreed upon by both sides. If the creationist then uses that fact to support an argument that transitions themselves are rare, that’s perfectly legitimate and is not quote-mining.

  44. William J. Murray: His quote was used to establish the fact that tranisitional fossils are rare is agreed upon by both sides.If the creationist then uses that fact to support an argument that transitions themselves are rare, that’s perfectly legitimate and is not quote-mining.

    And pay no attention to the fact that Gould’s position is exactly the opposite, right?

    So once again, why even mention Gould? Why not refer directly to the fossil record? Could it possibly be that you’re trying to create the impression that a famous evolutionist agrees with your contention, knowing he does not?

  45. William J. Murray: That doesn’t even make sense.

    You said that no evidence has been supplied that supports Gould’s actual position. And I agree – creationists DO NOT supply evidence conflicting with their claims, no matter how abundant it is. They simply omit it all. The only “evidence” they have, often enough, is some evolutionist’s statement about something else, being misrepresented as required.

  46. So what? In a scientific discussion it doesn’t matter who agrees with whom.

    Depends on the discussion and what point is being made.

    Nobody cares if Gould agrees with what you say, or not, insofar as he is not the original source for the facts he mentions.

    That’s a personal assessment. I think that if quotes can be provided that shwos both sides agree to certain facts, we can accept those facts arguendo for the purpose of the debate/argument.

    His views have no impact on the validity of your arguments.

    Agreed. However, to have an argument we must agree on certain things. Establishing that both sides agree to a set of facts lets the argument proceed at least arguendo.

    All that matters is on what facts and reasoning your arguments are based.

    Agreed. But, in order to establish that the argument at least potentially has merit, you should establish assumptions or facts that both sides agree upon. There’s no better way to do this than by providing quotes that demonstrate the other side agreeing to a fact you have posited for the argument.

    They are not there to awe opponents because Authority Gould happens to say the same thing you say. Unless he is an original researcher who establishes a new finding, his views don’t matter a jot.

    I didn’t say anything of the sort. I said that using Gould’s quote establishes that the fact is agreed to on both sides.

    That you think it matters in a debate about origins that Gould agrees with creationists on something, shows that what you are engaging in is politics, not scientific discourse.

    No, it just means that I’m using evolutionist’s own admitted facts against them. 🙂 Which is perfectly fair.

  47. Flint said:

    You said that no evidence has been supplied that supports Gould’s actual position.

    No. I said that no evidence has been supplied that demonstrates that (1) anyone tried to paint Gould as a creationism supporter or (2) that Gould agrees with a creationist interpretation of the facts. That Gould disagrees with an interpretation of the facts he has admitted to is entirely irrelevant. Nobody owns the facts – they are there for anyone to use for their argument and interpret how they wish.

  48. William J. Murray

    No, it justmeans that I’m using evolutionist’s own admitted facts against them. Which is perfectly fair.

    Apart from the dishonesty of leaving out the context.

    Which seems not to trouble you, any more than not actually knowing what actually is going on troubles you.

    Glen Davidson

  49. William J. Murray:
    Flint said:No. I said that no evidence has been supplied that demonstrates that (1) anyone tried to paint Gould as a creationism supporter or (2) that Gould agrees with a creationist interpretation of the facts. That Gould disagrees with an interpretation of the facts he has admitted to is entirely irrelevant.Nobody owns the facts – they are there for anyone to use for their argument and interpret how they wish.

    Then, once again, why bother to mention Gould? If you must get your facts by quoting someone, why not quote a creationist?

    And while we’re at it, why do you creationists NEVER ONCE go on to say something like “while Gould agrees that transition fossils are rare, his interpretation of this rarity is completely incompatible with mine”?

  50. Flint said:

    The only “evidence” they have, often enough, is some evolutionist’s statement about something else, being misrepresented as required.

    No evidence of misrepresentation has as yet been offered up here. I’m sure it happens – I’m not about to claim no quote-mining by creationists ever occurs. However, it is clear from explicit statements from many people here that they are confusing their personal views about the motivations of creationists, and their indignation at having their own quotes used against them in support of creationism, as cases of “quote-mining”.

    Petrushka made this erroneous understanding explicit when he said:

    Well, yes, it’s true that quoting a mainstream biologist to support a creationist argument is quote mining.

    Anyone willing to agree that Petrushka is simply flat-out wrong about this? If not, you’re just as wrong as he is.

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