Evil newborns?

Posted on by

Can a newborn baby ever be evil and deserving of death? It seems that in their quest to justify the unjustifiable some theists indeed think so.

a God that can cause a worldwide flood that kills off a world full of evil people and saves only a few that are good

Mung

I think we can safely assume that there were newborns in the world just prior to the floode. However I’m skeptical that any baby can be classified as “evil people”.

What do believers in the flood think? Did those babies deserve to drown because they were evil? Did those evil babies go to heaven? Or were they a price worth paying to “reset” the earth to only allow good people to survive?

195 thoughts on “Evil newborns?”

  1. In this thread I will respond to comments Mung makes, having taken him off ignore for the time being.

  3. OMagain,

    I’ve addressed the question of the Flood in a comment I made to keiths on another thread. I don’t think there was a worldwide cataclysm which covered all or most of the globe, or which wiped out all or most of the human race, although I’m still open to Bruce Masse’s claim (see here) that a cometary impact around 2800 B.C. triggered worldwide tsunamis which caused the sea to rush up to 100 km inland, wiping out most of the human race. It sounds rather outlandish, but there’s a small chance he could be onto something.

    In any case, I think you are interpreting Mung’s comment over-literally. The fact that there were evil families at the time of the Flood (assuming it to have been both an historical and a worldwide event) doesn’t imply that the children in those families were evil. What’s more, their deaths would have been mercifully quick. Of course they didn’t deserve to die, and of course, if they did die, they must have gone to Heaven.

  4. Vincent,

    The fact that there were evil families at the time of the Flood (assuming it to have been both an historical and a worldwide event) doesn’t imply that the children in those families were evil.

    It doesn’t imply that all of the adults were evil, either. God rather clumsily wiped out the good with the bad. Not very impressive for the supposedly wise and all-powerful creator of the universe.

    Of course they didn’t deserve to die…

    So why did God kill them, when he could have easily spared them? And why does he continue killing innocent children to this day?

    What’s more, their deaths would have been mercifully quick.

    How did you reach that conclusion?

  6. God waits generation after generation hoping that someone good grows out of those babies…so that He can save them in the ark…but nobody does…

    But…just in case someone bad, who grew out of those babies, changes his mind in the end, God gives them a chance by making well known that the catastrophic flood is coming and that’s why Noah and his family are building the ark… for many, many years…everyone knows why they are building the ark and why…

    And then, everyone sees many animals flocking into the ark from all over… and Noah and his family explain again that the catastrophic flood is coming and God wants to preserve animals as well as humans…

    Then the door to the ark is miraculously closed and for 7 days nothing happens…
    Was Noah and his family mocked?? I bet they were…

    If anyone had changed his or her mind in the end, it was still possibly to get into the ark, not through the door, but through the ventilation “windows”…but nobody did…

    And nobody believed Noah and his family…Only 8 had enough faith to listen to God and Noah and be saved…

    Would I have believed if I had been there? Who knows…
    Its easy to judge God when not all details are known…but even then…

  7. vjtorley: Of course they didn’t deserve to die, and of course, if they did die, they must have gone to Heaven.

    Seems reasonable. Why not, though, skip the Earthly suffering altogether and just have Heaven?

  9. Yes. the bible insists that we are conceived in sin/evilk. We are right away, in the womb, evil. Weird but true.
    Anyways it would be that babes go to heaven until some age of accountability.

  10. Byers:

    Anyways it would be that babes go to heaven until some age of accountability.

    Why do you believe that?

  11. Robert Byers,

    Where have you been Robert!?
    We really need you to come up with some OPs or else we are going to squeeze the living daylights out of one OP Common Design vs. Common Descent…
    It is so boring here that even dazz flops are not funny anymore…and my kids chose to do homework over commenting here…

    BTW: I think you can ask for your new OP to be featured…anything you write is very likely to be more interesting than the last featured one… 😉

  13. It’s interesting that Mung still hasn’t commented here.

    Come on, Mung. Tell us about all those evil babies that your God killed off.

  15. Speaking of God punishing the innocent, and also to visit one of Sal’s favorite topics:

    15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

    16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    Leviticus 20:15-16

    Why kill the innocent animals?

  16. vjtorley: I don’t think there was a worldwide cataclysm which covered all or most of the globe, or which wiped out all or most of the human race,

    Really? You base you believe on what exactly?

    Gen 7:18-23

    “18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.”

    What teaching is that? New Born Catholics? Because I sure don’t remember this one…

  17. J-Mac,

    Vincent stated his position in the other thread:

    Of course, the story of the Flood is largely mythical – or, as I should say, counter-mythical. Genesis was written as a rebuttal of the old Babylonian creation myths: it assumes their veracity in broad outline, but recasts them from a monotheistic, God-centered perspective. The intention of the Biblical author was to show that God is just and merciful, and that He detests murderous violence, but protects those who obey His commands and call on His name.

    Vincent’s hypothesis doesn’t work very well. The story hardly shows that God is “just and merciful”. Quite the opposite.

    So what do you think about all the babies that God drowned, J-Mac? Did they all deserve it? Were they all evil?

  19. J-Mac,

    Did you read my @ 6? I guess not…

    I read it, but it didn’t answer my questions:

    So what do you think about all the babies that God drowned, J-Mac? Did they all deserve it? Were they all evil?

  20. J-Mac: God waits generation after generation hoping that someone good grows out of those babies…so that He can save them in the ark…but nobody does…

    So he preemptively drowns those who have not yet had the chance to choose?

  21. newton: So he preemptively drowns those who have not yet had the chance to choose?

    They didn’t have a chance to choose from our prospective, because we are restricted by time…Unlike the One who is outside of time…The Timeless One…who can choose to know…

  25. J-Mac: They didn’t have a chance to choose from our prospective, because we are restricted by time…Unlike the One who is outside of time…The Timeless One…who can choose to know…

    Is that a theremin in the background?

  28. J-Mac: They didn’t have a chance to choose from our prospective, because we are restricted by time…Unlike the One who is outside of time…The Timeless One…who can choose to know…

    Since they committed no crime do they end up in heaven or hell for the crime the never committed but was worthy of death?

    In other words, God kills a baby because he knows that the baby will commit a future evil.

    And God knows He will kill the baby before he has a chance to do evil.

    So God kills a baby He knows will never commit an evil action.

  29. keiths:
    Byers:

    Why do you believe that?

    In evangelical circles it was always concluded babes/in utero/children/ go to heaven. this because they can’t choose for or against faith in Christ. before christ likewise they could not choose about sin. they are conceived in sin and so sinners but the lack of choice gains them forgiveness.
    likewise retarded people etc etc.
    Its not in the bible directly but is concluded from its basic theme.

  30. Byers:

    Its not in the bible directly but is concluded from its basic theme.

    It’s not in the Bible directly or indirectly. It’s something people made up because it seemed fair to them.

    Christians — even bibliolatrous fundagelicals — tend to project their own moral sensibilities onto the Bible, instead of accepting what’s actually there.

  31. Robert Byers: In evangelical circles it was always concluded babes/in utero/children/ go to heaven. this because they can’t choose for or against faith in Christ. before christ likewise they could not choose about sin. they are conceived in sin and so sinners but the lack of choice gains them forgiveness.
    likewise retarded people etc etc.
    Its not in the bible directly but is concluded from its basic theme.

    That’s fantastic Rob!!! Maybe you should do an OP or more on that issue, so that we can explore this issue to further…much, much further… 😉

  32. Hi everyone,

    Re Protestant teachings on the fate of unbaptized infants, readers may find the following articles helpful:

    The Salvation of the ‘Little Ones’: Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven? by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Daniel L. Akin (july 16, 2009). Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr. serves as president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

    What happens to children who die in infancy? by David Roach. In The Baptist Courier, August 27, 2015.

    “Original Sin” and Infant Salvation by Ken Pulliam, a former Baptist with a Ph.D. in theology from Bob Jones University who became an agnostic atheist (March 24, 2010). Dr. Pulliam died of a heart attack in 2010.

    What do Protestant churches teach about the fate of deceased infants? at Christianity Stack Exchange (June 5, 2016).

    Do Babies Go to Heaven? by Andrew Wilson in Christianity Today (October 26, 2015). Offers a tentative explanation as to why the Bible is silent on this question.

  33. Vincent:

    Do Babies Go to Heaven? by Andrew Wilson in Christianity Today (October 26, 2015). Offers a tentative explanation as to why the Bible is silent on this question.

    Apart from a preview, the article is behind a paywall, so I’m unable to read it.

    The Bible’s silence on the issue is indeed puzzling, at least for those who think it is the inspired word of God. Think of the anguish this unanswered question has caused for grieving parents over the centuries.

    A competent and loving God could have spared a sentence or two for the topic, don’t you think?

  36. J-Mac: They didn’t have a chance to choose from our prospective, because we are restricted by time…Unlike the One who is outside of time…The Timeless One…who can choose to know…

    So much for free will.

  37. Robert Byers: In evangelical circles it was always concluded babes/in utero/children/ go to heaven. this because they can’t choose for or against faith in Christ. before christ likewise they could not choose about sin. they are conceived in sin and so sinners but the lack of choice gains them forgiveness.
    likewise retarded people etc etc.
    Its not in the bible directly but is concluded from its basic theme.

    You must be so happy that you are guaranteed a spot in heaven.

  38. A bigger question is why God used Noah’s flood to kill all of the Asians, Scandinavians, aboriginal Australians, north, central and South Americans without ever providing them with the word of God so that they could make their own choices. Seems rather cruel, childish and evil to me.

  39. Acartia:

    A bigger question is why God used Noah’s flood to kill all of the Asians, Scandinavians, aboriginal Australians, north, central and South Americans without ever providing them with the word of God so that they could make their own choices. Seems rather cruel, childish and evil to me.

    God seems to have been focused on — and obsessed with — exactly that part of the world where the author(s) of Genesis happened to live. What an interesting coincidence.

  40. Another example of God punishing the innocent:

    7 They moved the ark of God from Abinadab’s house on a new cart, with Uzzah and Ahio guiding it. 8 David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, timbrels, cymbals and trumpets.

    9 When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. 10 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God.

    1 Chronicles 13:7-10, NIV

    Even David saw that God had been an ass:

    11 Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah [“Outbreak against Uzzah”].

    The amazing thing is that so many people worship this asshole.

  41. Acartia: Acartia October 2, 2017 at 10:40 pm
    J-Mac: They didn’t have a chance to choose from our prospective, because we are restricted by time…Unlike the One who is outside of time…The Timeless One…who can choose to know…

    So much for free will.

    How is this related to free will?

  42. Acartia: Acartia October 2, 2017 at 10:38 pm
    keiths: Why kill the innocent animals?

    All of my sheep were consenting.

    Are you both vegans?

  43. keiths:
    Another example of God punishing the innocent:

    Even David saw that God had been an ass:

    The amazing thing is that so many people worship this asshole.

    OMG!!!

  44. Acartia:
    A bigger question is why God used Noah’s flood to kill all of the Asians, Scandinavians, aboriginal Australians, north, central and South Americanswithout everproviding them with the word of God so that they could make their own choices. Seems rather cruel, childish and evil to me.

    You’ve never heard of “Oog Internet”???
    It was called Oogle …

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdghRwWfaOQ

  46. Evil newborns?

    Here is a clip about an evil newborn based LOOSELY on a prophecy in the Bible.

  47. keiths,

    O’RLY??? Let’s test your scholarly knowledge…Why was Uzza put “in charge” of the Ark and what was the strict command regarding that?

    Let’s listen to your usual excuses and goal post moves… 😉

  48. J-Mac,

    How about answering the question?

    So how do you rationalize God’s dickish decision to kill Uzzah, J-Mac?

  49. keiths: The amazing thing is that so many people worship this asshole.

    He’s just like Dinsdale Piranha. Sure, he nailed my head to the floor, but I deserved it because I had transgressed the unwritten law. Tough but fair, that’s old Dinsie. Just don’t make me go and see Doug.

  50. keiths:
    J-Mac,

    How about answering the question?

    Just admit it that you have no clue…which is obvious… and you are going to be ranting as long as you find someone to continue so that you can kill your boredom… pitiful…

Leave a Reply