159 thoughts on “Admitting Mistakes”

  4. Gralgrathor:
    OMagain,

    Why are you not allowed to scratch your leg?

    Well, perhaps allowed is a little strong, but some itches get worse from scratching, not better. A tedious skin condition.

  5. IMO, there are “mistakes” that can be “corrected” and those that can’t. What I mean by that is that there are some ‘categorial’ positions that are the basis of one’s beliefs, generally. The principle of non-contradiction for example. It can’t be proven. Yet, it’s either true or false (or something else if the principle of excluded middle is false). So if somebody believes it’s true and it isn’t, that person is wrong. But this isn’t a mistake that can corrected–only changed. It can’t be corrected, because a “conversion” isn’t a “correction.”

    For example, I think William takes some views that are basic to his worldview in the sense that everything else he believes is dependent on them. They’re axiomatic. And they’re inconsistent with the axiom set held by most of the people who post here (which, again, is a big deal, iff the principle of non-contradiction is true). Now, his basic positions may be false (I, for one, think they are), but they aren’t the sort of mistake that can be corrected. Furthermore, they aren’t the sort of view that people are likely to change. Except for pointing out pragmatic problems with his axiom set (maybe it’s not elegant or parsimonious or terribly fruitful), there’s no point disagreeing with it. And there’s no point whatever arguing with it. It’s a waste of everybody’s time. The arguments here are to a great extent just as ridiculous as the arguments one finds there. I believe William has tried to make this point himself on occasion, but it hasn’t quite made the fun of scoffing go away for either side.

    As I said, there’s no congratulations like self-congratulations. And, I hasten to add, I don’t exclude myself from this morass. I’ve been known to play solitaire too.

    Anyhow, back to cheering for our team!

  6. walto:

    For example, I think William takes some views that are basic to his worldview in the sense that everything else he believes is dependent on them. They’re axiomatic. And they’re inconsistent with the axiom set held by most of the people who post here (which, again, is a big deal, iff the principle of non-contradiction is true). Now, his basic positions may be false (I, for one, think they are), but they aren’t the sort of mistake that can be corrected.

    It’s still possible to point out that William’s beliefs or behavior are inconsistent with his claimed axioms. William says that he cares about logical coherence, so an inconsistency would be a real issue for him.

    For example, he says that he doesn’t care about the truth, pragmatic or otherwise. OMagain and I have been pointing out that unless William’s true-life behavior is beyond bizarre, he really does care about the truth.

    See here and on, for example.

  14. walto,

    Just pick any twelve of your choice–not involving my name.

    You’ll have to help me out. How about providing twelve links of your own, along with descriptions of what you think my errors were?

  16. keiths,

    “How about providing twelve links of your own, along with descriptions of what you think my errors were?”

    Why in the world would I take the trouble to do this again? How about you just read the objections I’ve already made to at least fifty of your posts and own up to (only) 12 (of your own choice) instead of continuing to weasel, dissemble, and generally continue to act like a dink?

  17. walto,

    How about you just read the objections I’ve already made…

    I have, and they weren’t very persuasive.

    How about highlighting my twelve most egregious unacknowledged errors? It’s a great opportunity for you to show that I “weasel”, “dissemble”, and generally don’t live up to my own standards.

    The downside, of course, is that you’ll actually have to provide evidence for your claims. I’ve noticed that you prefer not to do that.

  18. Providing evidence is easy. I, Neil, Alan, hotshoe, sophisticat, and others have done so many times. What’s hard (nay, impossible) is getting you to admit that’s what it is. Life is way too short.

  19. Your recent dispute with Alan about soldier ants is classic. If you can’t see that you were wrong there, I don’t think anybody can help you. I’m also kind of fond of your twisting HITCHENS’ repeated use of “Yiddish- speaking socialists” into ME being an anti-semite. That was also pretty incredible.

  20. While I have the opportunity to be irrelevant, I have been wondering if the Talk Origins Index to Creationist Claims is going to be updated with new arguments and rebuttals some day? I figured someone here would have an idea. Thanks in advance.

  21. OMagain: Well, perhaps allowed is a little strong, but some itches get worse from scratching, not better. A tedious skin condition

    Ah, but you are allowed to scratch your leg. You made a mistake, and I’m going to bring that up every time you say something!

    By the way, why do people say guns are not evil? Kind of a silly attitude, isn’t it?

  22. walto:

    Your recent dispute with Alan about soldier ants is classic. If you can’t see that you were wrong there, I don’t think anybody can help you.

    walto,

    Even Alan admitted that the behavior of the sterile castes has a genetic explanation:

    Indeed they are 0.75 related to each other so the behaviour makes sense “genetically”.

    Did you miss that? Also, do you really think that Joe, a practicing biologist, is wrong about it too? He wrote:

    Soldier ants or soldier termites do not behave as they do because they inherit the behavior (let alone the morphology) culturally. Their actions and morphology are phenotypes that are coded by genes, expressed in the context of the environment.

    If you want to challenge me, why do it over an issue of settled biology? You’re bound to lose.

    P.S. I already responded to your other false claim here.

  23. walto: If you can’t see that you were wrong there,

    Well, he wasn’t – at least not about the biology. It’s just the whole “he said, she said” that followed that was a bit embarrassing. For everybody, no matter who was right about who said what. But that’s done now. Plenty if more interesting topics. Such as the morality of guns.

  28. One has to accept or understand that something they said is a mistake in the first place in order to “admit” that they have made a mistake. It’s a rhetorical game of negatively characterizing those one is debating to assert or imply that they “refuse to admit” something.

    Mostly what goes on on this site is negative characterization. I understand now why people here assumed I was negatively characterizing atheists when I was making arguments about the rational consequences of atheism; this is the de facto standard of “debate” here, and everything said is filtered through the lens of personality characterization (with a couple of exceptions).

    Walto said:

    For example, I think William takes some views that are basic to his worldview in the sense that everything else he believes is dependent on them. They’re axiomatic.

    Walto, none of my views are dependent upon any axioms, unless you call my goal of “enjoying existence as a good person” a proper axiom – which it is not, because my views are not logically bound to that goal, but are only pragmatically bound to that as a result. For me, axioms are nothing more than parts of a model that can be adopted or discarded depending on how well they appear to serve the goal.

    As far as whether or not my views are rationally consistent, as I have stated numerous times I have views that are not rationally consistent with each other. The apparent success of my goal trumps all other considerations – including logic. While a rationally coherent worldview adds to my intellectual satisfaction (and thus my enjoyment of existence), I don’t require absolute adherence to logic. I’m willing to accept that some things are just inexplicable and irrational.

  30. William J. Murray: Walto, none of my views are dependent upon any axioms, unless you call my goal of “enjoying existence as a good person” a proper axiom – which it is not, because my views are not logically bound to that goal, but are only pragmatically bound to that as a result. For me, axioms are nothing more than parts of a model that can be adopted or discarded depending on how well they appear to serve the goal.

    As far as whether or not my views are rationally consistent, as I have stated numerous times I have views that are not rationally consistent with each other. The apparent success of my goal trumps all other considerations – including logic. While a rationally coherent worldview adds to my intellectual satisfaction (and thus my enjoyment of existence), I don’t require absolute adherence to logic. I’m willing to accept that some things are just inexplicable and irrational.

    You like talking about yourself don’t you?

  31. WJM said:

    Mostly what goes on on this site is negative characterization.

    Omagain said:

    You like talking about yourself don’t you?

    ROFL. Case in point.

  32. Alice said: “one can’t believe impossible things.”

    “I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”

  33. Patrick: Guns are a tool.Some people use them for evil, some for good.

    No, guns are evil. Sometimes they’re a necessary evil – but usually only in cases were people who are up to no good also have guns, and are willing to use them. There’s nothing good that can come from introducing guns into a situation that had no guns in it before.

  34. If we judge a product –as I have seen done on another blog — on whether it is necessary and whether it leads to mass killing, I think we would have to go back to prohibition. Alcohol is useless. Billions of people live without it. The number of children killed in alcohol-related deaths far exceeds the number of innocent people killed by guns.

    I’m not a gun owner and don’t like having them around, but I also don’t think much of prohibition. Both handguns and drugs are illegal in Chicago, and yet it’s not unusual for half a dozen kids to die on a weekend in incidents involving both.

    The odds of being murdered with a gun are about equivalent to the odds of winning Powerball, unless you deal in drugs or live near people who do.

  35. Gralgrathor: No, guns are evil. Sometimes they’re a necessary evil – but usually only in cases were people who are up to no good also have guns, and are willing to use them. There’s nothing good that can come from introducing guns into a situation that had no guns in it before.

    That’s factually incorrect. Consider the fact that the average woman in the U.S. is 5’4″ and 140 lbs. The average man is 5’9″ and 180 lbs. Pound for pound, men are stronger than women.

    Now consider the outcome matrix when a man attacks a woman:

    If neither are armed, the man wins (high probability).
    If only the man is armed, the man wins (high probability).
    If both are armed, the woman has a roughly 50% chance of defending herself.
    If only the woman is armed, the woman has a high probability of defending herself.

    Under no circumstances is the woman better off unarmed.

  36. Mildly interestingly, when I typed “average size of a woman” into Google I got height and weight answers. When I typed “average size of a man” I got penis size data.

  37. Gralgrathor said:

    There’s nothing good that can come from introducing guns into a situation that had no guns in it before.

    You mean, besides homeowners and women defending themselves from criminals that didn’t have guns?

    http://www.cbs46.com/story/20506821/homeowner-shoots-intruder-in

    http://archive.wcsh6.com/news/watercooler/article/226691/108/Ohio-homeowner-shoots-two-burglars-in-two-months

    http://lubbockonline.com/crime-and-courts/crime/2013-01-03/homeowner-shoots-2-men-during-early-morning-attempted-burglary#.U6Gbhijy-mB

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Phoenix-homeowner-reportedly-shoots-and-kills-alleged-intruder-185438952.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/02/naked-man-shot-choking-dog-miami_n_2395851.html

    I was once camping in a small cabin on some land I owned with my wife and daughters. I woke up to hear the sound of my car being broken into. The cabin wasn’t visible from where the car was parked. I walked outside with my shotgun to find 5 young men, none of them armed with a gun, using crowbars to bash in my car windows & pry open the trunk. I got them lined up in front of me on the ground while my wife went for help (this was before cell phones and the cabin had no phone).

  38. Patrick,

    So you fight one evil with another. Doesnt change that guns are evil. And there are lesser evils that can be used. Pepperspray, tazers.

  40. So far the claims about guns here have been a function of estimates of the probable consequences of having laws that abolish them. There are a lot of tough questions surrounding those: (Would only good people abide by a law? Would women suffer because men (or their penises) are bigger? Would abolition be bad for homeowners? Is it tantamount to prohibition? Does alcohol have worse consequences than handguns? Etc.)

    That surprises me, because I thought a bunch of people here were natural rights devotees. And for them, of course, none of those estimates (which are really difficult) matter, because there’d be a side-constraint on gun prohibition anyhow. For libertarians, whether it’s guns or their (also borderline retarded) owners that kill people is really irrelevant–or at best frosting, if the cases seem to be swinging their way–since there’s this, you know, inalienable right, like there is to (as hotshoe says) freeze peaches.

  41. Gralgrathor:
    Patrick,

    So you fight one evil with another. Doesnt change that guns are evil. And there are lesser evils that can be used. Pepperspray, tazers.

    You’re assuming your conclusion without supporting it. Guns are merely tools. “Evil” is an attribute of a conscious actor.

  42. William J. Murray: Why are guns evil, and peppersrpay and tazers not?

    Try going to a country that keeps order with mere batons one day and perhaps you’ll find out.

    And lists of things are evidence are they? Try this:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/05/1206983/-Accidental-Shootings-of-Children-and-Teens-Since-Newtown

    1. December 15, 2012: 3-year-old boy shoots and kills himself with gun found in the home of his uncle, who is a state trooper. http://www.nydailynews.com/…

    2. December 20, 2012: 2-year-old boy shoots and kills himself after picking up a gun his grandfather left on a chair. http://www.wbbjtv.com/…

    3. December 22, 2012: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by neighbor showing off his gun. http://www.wncn.com/…

    4. December 25, 2012: 2-year-old boy shot and killed himself with his father’s gun on Christmas Day. http://www.wafb.com/…

    5. December 25, 2012: 10-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by his 12-year-old brother while playing with a gun on Christmas Day. http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/…

    6. December 28, 2012: 12-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by his uncle during deer hunt. http://www.wnct.com/…

    7. December 31, 2012: 17-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by younger brother cleaning a shotgun. http://www.wptz.com/…

    8. December 31, 2012: 18-year-old boy shot in the head and killed by a 13-year-old relative while they were shooting birds. http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/…

    9. December 31, 2012: 8-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by father cleaning his rifle. http://www.thecherawchronicle.com/…

    10. January 1, 2013: 16-year-old boy shot and killed his 15-year-old friend on New Year’s Day with a gun they bought on the street for $40. http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/…

    11. January 2, 2013: 13-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed while shooting at trash pile with friends. http://www.kristv.com/…

    12. January 2, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot by 16-year-old friend while playing with gun found behind a gas station. http://www.ksdk.com/…

    13. January 4, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot by his father while hunting deer. http://www.kcentv.com/…

    14. January 7, 2013: 4-year-old boy accidentally shot by mother’s boyfriend as he was showing his gun to a friend. http://fox4kc.com/…

    15. January 7, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot himself. http://www.somdnews.com/…

    16. January 8, 2013: 15-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by her 19-year-old brother while they fought over a video game. http://www.cbs58.com/…

    17. January 9, 2013: 2-year-old boy shot himself in the chest with a gun found in his home. http://setxhomepage.com/…

    18. January 10, 2013: 4-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by another young child with gun found lying on chair. http://fox4kc.com/…

    19. January 10, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot while hunting with a friend. http://www.wcnc.com/…

    20. January 10, 2013: 12-year-old boy fatally shot in the chest by his cousin, who wanted to show him the shotgun he got for Christmas. http://annistonstar.com/…

    21. January 12, 2013: 2-year-old boy shot in head by brother handling pellet gun. http://www.foxcarolina.com/…

    22. January 13, 2013: Juvenile shot in back in hunting accident. http://www.kpcnews.com/…

    23. January 14, 2013: 12-year-old boy accidentally shoots and kills himself while handling gun at home. http://www.kmbc.com/…

    24. January 14, 2013: 17-year-old boy shot and killed by 18-year-old friend while playing with gun. http://hamptonroads.com/…

    25. January 15. 2013: 17-year-old boy accidentally shot self while handling gun at friend’s house. http://www.cleveland.com/…

    26. January 15, 2013: 13-year-old boy shot and killed by another teen while rabbit hunting. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…

    27. January 16, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot himself with a hunting rifle inside his home. http://www.carolinalive.com/…

    28. January 18, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot by his 17-year-old friend after his friend stole a relative’s guns and they played with them. http://www.fauquiernow.com/…

    29. January 19, 2013: 15-year-old accidentally shot his 14-year-old friend while playing with his grandfather’s gun. http://www.wkyt.com/…

    30. January 20, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot in face by father while hunting. http://www.newsworks.org/…

    31. January 20, 2013: 5-year-old accidentally shot by 7-year-old while playing with gun. http://www.tallahassee.com/…

    32. January 20, 2013: 18-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed while he and his friends were passing around a gun. http://www.nola.com/…

    33. January 20, 2013: 14-year-old girl accidentally shot. http://www.boonvilledailynews.com/…

    34. January 22, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot by another teenager while playing basketball. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/…

    35. January 24, 2013: 2-year-old boy shot and killed by his 18-year-old brother who was playing with a gun. http://theadvocate.com/…

    36. January 24, 2013: 4-year-old accidentally shot and killed with his father’s illegally-owned gun the week after the child’s mother demanded that he get rid of the gun. http://www.ohio.com/…

    37. January 24, 2013: 3-year-old shoots self with gun found in his home. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/…

    38. January 26, 2013: 15-year-old accidentally shot and killed himself with “family handgun.” http://www.wate.com/…

    39. January 27, 2013: 17-year-old boy accidentally shot by his 16-year-old friend while they were playing with a gun. http://www.nola.com/…

    40. January 27, 2013: 4-year-old found gun in home, accidentally shot himself. http://www.wral.com/…

    41. January 31, 2013: 3-year-old boy accidentally shot while father cleaning gun. http://fox4kc.com/…

    42. February 1, 2013: 18-year-old accidentally shoots self while trying to dislodge stuck cartridge from rifle. http://whotv.com/…

    43. February 1, 2013: 5-year-old girl accidentally shot in stomach at her home. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/…

    44. February 3, 2013: 13-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by her 14-year-old brother while he handled a shotgun in their home. http://www.wlns.com/…

    45. February 4, 2013: 18-year-old accidentally shoots himself with an assault weapon while trying to fix a chamber jam. http://www.ketv.com/…

    46. February 4, 2013: 18-year-old accidentally shot while cleaning gun. http://www.koaa.com/…

    47. February 5, 2013: 3-year-old boy fatally shot himself in the head while playing with a pink gun that he and his 7-year-old sister thought was a toy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…

    48. February 5, 2013: 5-year-old girl accidentally shot in the abdomen by father, who was loading his new gun. http://www.star-telegram.com/…

    49. February 7, 2013: 18-year-old male accidentally shot himself while handling a gun at work. http://www.kfoxtv.com/…

    50. February 8, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot three times by 16-year-old boy. http://www.wmctv.com/…

    51. February 9, 2013: 3-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by mother’s boyfriend. http://www.wsiltv.com/…

    52. February 9, 2013: 11-year-old and 14-year-old boys playing with gun in a home owned by a convicted felon prohibited from having a gun; one child is accidentally shot. http://www.wdtv.com/…

    53. February 11, 2013: 4-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed himself while playing with a gun. http://www.knoxnews.com/…

    54. February 12, 2013: 4-year-old girl accidentally shot herself with gun found in mother’s dresser drawer. http://www.wsoctv.com/…

    55. February 15, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself at a fight outside a Burger King. http://antiochherald.com/…

    56. February 16, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed when he and his 14-year-old brother were playing with a shotgun in their home. http://www.fayobserver.com/…

    57. February 17, 2013: 18-year-old girl accidentally shot when a rifle discharged while she was changing a flat tire. http://www.ksl.com/…

    58. February 18, 2013: 17-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself while handling a gun; files false report to hide what happened. http://www.lockhaven.com/…

    59. February 18, 2013: 12-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by a family member. http://www.hutchnews.com/…

    60. February 19, 2013: 18-year-old girl accidentally shot in head by 3-year-old who found a gun under a mattress in the home. http://www.wmbb.com/…

    61. February 19, 2013: 9-year-old boy accidentally shot in the head after he found his father’s gun and played with it; his younger sister tried to take it away from him and it discharged. http://www.dispatch.com/…

    62. February 20, 2013: 14-month-old baby accidentally shot after another apartment resident, an active member of the Air Force, fired his gun and the bullet went through the wall and struck the baby. http://www.wtxl.com/…

    63. February 20, 2013: 3-year-old boy accidentally shot in the head and killed at home; both parents and other small children were also home at the time. http://www.dallasnews.com/…

    64. February 21, 2013: 12-year-old boy shot himself while hunting squirrels with his 10-year-old brother. http://weatherforddemocrat.com/…

    65. February 21, 2013: 12-year-old accidentally shot while playing with a shotgun with a 16-year-old relative. http://www.abcnews4.com/…

    66. February 22, 2013: 2-year-old boy accidentally shot himself in the head at home. http://www.heraldstandard.com/…

    67. February 22, 2013: 5-year-old boy accidentally shot himself or was shot by his 11-year-old brother, using his father’s gun. http://blogs.wsj.com/…

    68. February 23, 2013: 3-year-old boy accidentally shot by his father while his father was cleaning his rifle. http://www.ksskradio.com/…

    69. February 24, 2013: 13-year-old boy accidentally shot by his 13-year-old friend at the home of his friend’s godfather, who gave his godson unrestricted access to 8 guns to show his friends. http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/…

    70. February 24, 2013: 9-year-old boy accidentally shot himself while out shooting with his grandfather. http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/…

    71. February 24, 2013: 4-year-old boy shot and killed himself with stolen gun left out by father. http://www.chron.com/…

    72. February 24, 2013: 15-year-old accidentally shot and killed while playing with guns with friends. http://silverpinyon.com/…

    73. February 26, 2013: 17-year-old girl accidentally shot herself while unloading groceries; she dropped two handguns and one discharged, striking her. http://therecordlive.com/…

    74. February 26, 2013: 10-year-old accidentally shot and killed by another juvenile. http://www.kten.com/…

    75. February 27, 2013: 17-year-old girl accidentally shot herself outside her high school. http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/…

    76. February 28, 2013: 15-year-old boy accidentally shot his 11-year-old brother while playing with gun. http://www.nola.com/…

    77. March 1, 2013: 4-year-old boy accidentally shot by older brother while family was outside shooting. http://www.eparisextra.com/…

    78. March 4, 2013: 4-year-old son of sheriff’s deputy accidentally shoots himself to death with father’s gun. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/…

    79. March 4, 2013: 18-year-old male accidentally shot in head and killed while cleaning guns with friend. http://www.news-sentinel.com/…

    80. March 4, 2013: 17-year-old male accidentally shot by family member with rifle. http://www.tidewaternews.com/…

    81. March 5, 2013: 3-year old boy accidentally shot by stepfather, who tried to lie to authorities about how it happened. http://www.wect.com/…

    82. March 7, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shoots self in face. http://www.fox47news.com/…

    83. March 7, 2013: 16-year-old fatally shot in face by 18-year-old while playing Russian roulette with friends. http://whtc.com/…

    84. March 9, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot by friend playing with semiautomatic handgun. http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/…

    85. March 9, 2013: 3-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself in the head with aunt’s gun after she leaves it in the bathroom. http://www.wsmv.com/…

    86. March 10, 2013: 11-year-old boy accidentally shot by friends playing with gun. http://www.wave3.com/…

    87. March 11, 2013: 16-year-old accidentally shot while cleaning out closet; shotgun discharged when he knocked it over and he tried to pull it out of the closet. http://blog.al.com/…

    88. March 12, 2013: 3-year-old accidentally shot outside home. http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/…

    89. March 13, 2013: 10-year-old boy accidentally shot in head and killed by 13-year-old brother while they were shooting BB guns. http://www.theledger.com/…

    90. March 14, 2013: 4-year-old accidentally shot while playing with a gun in a car with a sibling. http://myfox8.com/…

    91. March 14, 2013: 15-year-old accidentally shot at a party when he tried to disarm a drunk man with a shotgun. http://chickashanews.com/…

    92. March 14, 2013: 16-year-old accidentally shoots himself while playing with gun. http://www.ksla.com/…

    93. March 15, 2013: 10-month old baby accidentally shot and killed by his father, who was handling a semiautomatic handgun at the time. The baby was shot in the chest in front of his mother and his brothers, aged 2 and 3. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/…

    94. March 18, 2013: 18-year-old male fatally shot himself in the face while cleaning his gun. http://tristatehomepage.com/…

    95. March 18, 2013: 3-year-old accidentally shot himself with gun found in relative’s home. http://www.wthr.com/…

    96. March 20, 2013: 4-year-old accidentally shot himself in the face with gun at his home. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/…

    97. March 22, 2013: 17-year-old boy accidentally shot himself while walking down the street holding a gun. http://m.arkansasonline.com/…

    98. March 26, 2013: 10-year-old accidentally shot and killed as he was watching TV. His father shot him in the head as he was cleaning his shotgun. http://www.fayobserver.com/…

    99. March 28, 2013: 12-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by 16-year-old brother, who thought he was an intruder in their home. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/…

    100. March 28, 2013: 11-year-old girl accidentally shot in head and killed by 11-year old boy handling a rifle owned by the girl’s 15-year-old brother. http://www.azfamily.com/…

    101. March 29, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed himself while playing with a gun with friends. http://www.commercialappeal.com/…

    102. March 29, 2013: 13-year-old boy accidentally shot by his father, who was testing his gun by shooting it into the woods behind his house. http://www.wrcbtv.com/…

    103. April 1, 2013: 4-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by 6-year-old brother with gun found in car. http://www.miamiherald.com/…

    104. April 1, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself after he slipped while walking and fell on his gun. http://www.marshallnews.com/…

    105. April 2, 2013: 3-year-old boy shoots himself with gun found under father’s bed. http://www.reporternewspapers.net/…

    106. April 2, 2013: 4-year-old boy accidentally shoots and kills himself after Easter services with gun found in relative’s home. http://www.nydailynews.com/…

    107. April 6, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shot himself while cleaning gun. http://www.newsnet5.com/…

    108. April 8, 2013: 4-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by father cleaning gun. http://www.brownwoodnews.com/…

    109. April 9, 2013: 4-year-old boy fatally shoots 6-year-old boy in head with rifle he got from his house. http://www.cnn.com/…

    110. April 9, 2013: 3-year-old shoots and kills self after finding gun in home. http://www.wbtw.com/…

    111. April 12, 2013: 3-year-old boy shoots self while reaching for gun under father’s bed. http://news.cincinnati.com/…

    112. April 13, 2013: 13-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed while playing with a gun with other children in an unsupervised home. http://www.news4jax.com/…

    113. April 14, 2013, 7-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed while shooting a semiautomatic with his brothers and father. http://www.salina.com/…

    114. April 15, 2013: 9-year-old girl shot in the face and killed when mother’s boyfriend, a decorated Iraq War veteran, accidentally discharges his gun while practicing for his new job as a security guard. http://www.oregonlive.com/…

    115. April 15, 2013: 6-year-old boy accidentally shoots self in church parking lot. http://www.kens5.com/…

    116. April 15, 2013: 7-year-old girl accidentally shot in chest by 6-year-old cousin with gun found in bedside table. http://www.sunherald.com/…

    117. April 16, 2013: 6-year-old girl accidentally shot by 14-year-old cousin in a chiropractor’s office. http://www.kmbc.com/…

    118. April 17, 2013: 16-year-old girl accidentally shot by 16-year-old boy in possession of illegal gun. http://www.thenewsstar.com/…

    119. April 17, 2013: 16-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself with semiautomatic while showing it to friends. http://www.boston.com/…

    120. April 17, 2013: Unsupervised 2-year-old accidentally shot self. http://blog.al.com/…

    121. April 18, 2013: 8-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed. http://www.idahopress.com/…

    122. April 18, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot with stolen gun. http://www.wtov9.com/…

    123. April 22, 2013: 2-year-old boy accidentally shot himself in chest after he reached into father’s pocket for a gun and it discharged. http://www.wyff4.com/…

    124. April 22, 2013: 4-year-old accidentally shot and killed at his home. http://www.nbcnews.com/…

    125. April 23, 2013: 10-month-old boy accidentally shot by his 3-year-old sister with parents’ gun, which she found in the family car. http://www.idahostatesman.com/…

    126. April 24, 2013: 7-year-old boy accidentally shot by his 11-year-old brother with gun hidden in their home by their grandfather, who found it outside and intended to turn it in to police. http://www.delawareonline.com/…

    127. April 24, 2013: 10-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed in his living room while others were home. http://www.sunherald.com/…

    128. April 26, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by his 12-year-old brother, who then got other juveniles to help bury the body and lie about what happened to his brother. http://www.fox19.com/…

    129. April 26, 2013: 10-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed by one of his juvenile siblings, after they found their father’s shotgun while playing in the garage. http://www.10tv.com/…

    130. April 27, 2013: 4-year-old accidentally shot himself in his home with family gun, which father thought was locked up. http://www.nbc12.com/…

    131. April 29, 2013: 14-year-old boy accidentally shot by his 15-year-old stepbrother with a revolver they found and played with. The 15-year-old disposed of the gun later and lied to police about how the shooting happened. http://abclocal.go.com/…

    132. April 29, 2013: 6-year-old girl accidentally shot while playing with a gun with another small child. http://www.pnj.com/…

    133. April 30, 2013: 14-year-old accidentally shot himself while trying to clear a malfunction in the semiautomatic handgun he was using for target practice. http://www.weau.com/…

    134. April 30, 2013: 2-year-old girl accidentally shot to death by 5-year-old brother with child-size rifle given to brother as a gift. http://www.kentucky.com/…

    135. April 30, 2013: 5-year-old girl accidentally shot to death by 8-year-old brother, who was playing with the rifle he had used the day before to go hunting. http://www.ktuu.com/…

    136. May 2, 2013: 9-year-old girl accidentally shot by her 7-year-old brother with a rifle that had been kept in the closet of another sibling, who was not at home at the time. http://q13fox.com/…

    137. May 3, 2013: 3-year-old boy fatally shoots himself in the face with his grandmother’s gun while his mother and grandmother were in the other room. http://www.rawstory.com/…

  44. William J. Murray: One has to accept or understand that something they said is a mistake in the first place in order to “admit” that they have made a mistake.

    Absolutely right with you there, William. “Why won’t you admit your mistake” is equivalent to “when did you stop beating your wife?”

  45. Patrick: You’re assuming your conclusion without supporting it.Guns are merely tools.“Evil” is an attribute of a conscious actor.

    Violence is evil. Guns are used for violence. Guns are evil. So there.

  46. OMagain:
    And lists of things are evidence are they? Try this:
    . . .

    That’s pretty strong evidence of the need for more rigorous gun safety classes in public schools.

    That was your point, right?

  48. Patrick: Initiation of violence is evil.Defensive violence is good.

    No. Defensive violence is at best a necessary evil, a lesser evil preventing a greater evil.

  49. keiths: Even Alan admitted that the behavior of the sterile castes has a genetic explanation:

    Indeed they are 0.75 related to each other so the behaviour makes sense “genetically”.

    Whoa there trigger! Note those scare-quotes. It’s an empty phrase unless you can explain what a genetic explanation is in comparison to an explanation. Remember what Dobzhansky said. All biology is evolution. All biological explanations are genetic explanations. You semanticist, you! 🙂

  50. Patrick: If neither are armed, the man wins (high probability).
    If only the man is armed, the man wins (high probability).
    If both are armed, the woman has a roughly 50% chance of defending herself.
    If only the woman is armed, the woman has a high probability of defending herself.

    So, arm all women and disarm all men.

    Being originally from the UK, as a kid I never saw a gun except for shotguns, never held or fired a gun except a single-barrel .410 shot-gun that didn’t seem to be fatal to rabbits. The police never carried guns on routine duties. OK I see plenty of guns on display at airports now when visiting but it is possible for a society to survive where there is no right for private citizens to possess firearms.

    ETA link to a once notorious fatal shooting where a farmer shot an intruder and was convicted of and jailed (initially) for murder

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