A preserved dinosaur tail with feathers on it has been found

Full story: http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/dinosaur-tail-trapped-in-amber-trnd/index.html

I’d love proponents of both evolution and ID to tell me how their theories predicted this, along with supporting documentation from before the discovery. Thanks!

226 thoughts on “A preserved dinosaur tail with feathers on it has been found

  1. fifthmonarchyman: NS is purported to have the power to remove unnecessary and superfluous features. You were wrong in implying that it was not.

    Focus filthysomethingman, focus. You said “ruthless power,” not just “power.” With your infinite non-materialist wisdom and rich metaphysics, you should have known better. But you talked about it in categorical terms. Your statement showed shallow understanding at best, which is exactly where I was going. You took quite a detour, but it’s established: you have little, if any, idea of what you’re talking about, yet you do so with airs of authority that make you comical at best.

    Peanuts.

  2. OMagain: Shakespeare did.

    As people continue to do. We see changes after changes based on the use of words “of the people, by the people, for the people.” For example, the word “between” can now be used for many-to-many comparisons where it was a mistake and the word “among” was supposed to be used, with “between” reserved for a two-way comparison (for obvious reasons if you study the roots of the word).

    A quick view through the jargons in subcultures to subcultures, regions to regions, communities to communities, scientific vocabularies changing the meanings of the very same words on a per discipline basis, we’d have to say “discovered my ass.”

    This filthy guy has not been paying much attention. His biblical-fantasy-land doesn’t look like a healthy learning environment.

  3. In the evolutionary theory anything is possible. All one needs is chance and necessity… feathers grow or stop growing… same applies to hair an major appendages…. it’s almost miraculous and yet scientific… apparently… or that’s what some would like us to believe….

  4. newton:
    phoodoo,

    Just answering your question “ And yet we have no examples of modern animals using feathers for insulation.“

    And yet we do.

    No, if the claim is that the dinosaurs evolved feathers, because it was for insulation (you know, a lucky accident, that just so happen to keep you warm), then what other animals are getting lucky accidents for feathers that just so happen to keep you warm? Penguins? And so the penguins who didn’t get the lucky accidents, they were too cold to compete with their warmer brothers. I guess there were some penguins with fur, or maybe some penguins attempting to stay warm using paper-mache, but over a few hundred thousand years the paper-mache penguins just couldn’t keep up? (Paper-mache doesn’t last very well in the fossil record and this is why we can find much evidence for them. But we can make models, so that is evidence.)

  5. phoodoo: the claim is that the dinosaurs evolved feathers, because it was for insulation

    What a dumb luck! Wouldn’t it be easier to evolve fur for insulation?

  6. Entropy: As people continue to do. We see changes after changes based on the use of words “of the people, by the people, for the people.”

    A word might mean one thing in a particular context and an entirely different thing in another context.

    For instance the word “Gay” in one context might mean “lighthearted”and “joyous” in another it might mean “Homosexual”. language depends on context.

    That does not mean anyone is “inventing” meaning. The very idea is nonsensical.

    peace

  7. OMagain: One wonders what is at stake such that WJM’s entire worldview rests on dinosaurs not being related to birds.

    Whether or not dinosaurs are related to birds is entirely irrelevant to my worldview.

  8. Kantian Naturalist:
    The only thing that this thread demonstrates is that trying to have a rational discussion with evolution deniers is like trying to teach a pig to sing: it’s a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

    If you feel like wasting your time like that, feel free — we all have our hobbies — but it’s past time to give up on trying to have a reasonable discussion with these people.

    Nobody, in these forums who post often, fails in rational discussions.
    people just disagree, are wrong, and probably, a curve on ability in figuring out complicated things.

    This thread is about questioning historic presumptions.
    everyone can do it and me too.
    I say feathered “dinos” are a welcome discovery to biblical creationism and its KINDS concept.
    A final end is coming to classification systems based on trivial traits.
    a creature that has bird bones, lay efggs, and now feathers IS MOST LIKELY always been a BIRD KIND.
    Never was it a REptile or dinosaur. those ideas were based on grouping creatures on trivial traits in common.
    however the great number of traits should define creatures.
    These dino birds are really just boring ground birds in a spectrum of diversity Teeth and all.
    In fact there are no dinosaurs but all dinos are within KINDS unrelated to each other.
    Any common trait is due to a common need.
    Why did they ever say these theropd birds were dinos??
    Because of some trivial bone here or there.
    Yet it was simply the size of a ground bird that needed such a trait.

    This is the problem in classification.
    How to group creatures when its based on traits.
    Even evos admit things cross boundaries.

    birds are not dinos or related to brontosaurus or any others.
    Theropds are birds. or show why not.

  9. phoodoo: No, if the claim is that the dinosaurs evolved feathers, because it was for insulation (you know, a lucky accident, that just so happen to keep you warm), then what other animals are getting lucky accidents for feathers that just so happen to keep you warm? Penguins?

    C’mon phoodoo. You know better than that. There was only one “lucky accident” in the common ancestor of birds and other feathered dinosaurs. Penguins are birds so simply inherited feathers.

  10. Corneel: C’mon phoodoo. You know better than that. There was only one “lucky accident” in the common ancestor of birds and other feathered dinosaurs. Penguins are birds so simply inherited feathers.

    Right, I know better than that. That is why it was not me who claimed Penguins inherited feathers to stay warm. If the feathers just so happen to keep them warm as well, ok. But the question is not do feathers keep things warm, it is where and when did they come from.

    But I still don’t understand who is this common ancestor of birds and dinosaurs. Its like Allan’s claim of the common ancestor to fish and mammals, I have no idea what animal he is talking about. What animal are you referring to which is an ancestor to dinosaurs and birds? What was its survival method?

  11. Robert Byers: Why did they ever say these theropd birds were dinos??

    Because sir Richard Owen called them that. He was a 19th century biologist, a creationist (at least from the outset) and superbly skilled at comparative anatomy. When he examined bones of Megalosaurus (a theropod) and Iguanodon, he recognised them as members of an extinct type of reptile.

    Although he was a fantastic anatomist and clearly not an “evo”, he did not classify them as birds. Why do you think that was, Robert?

  12. phoodoo: But the question is not do feathers keep things warm, it is where and when did they come from.

    Exactly. The reason why we are having this discussion is because birds now require them for powered flight. But birds use feathers for different purposes, like flight, insulation, sexual display and camouflage. When feathers emerged on the scene, they probably did not serve all of those those purposes. Insulation is most likely the first selective advantage that primitive feathers conferred.

  13. phoodoo: But I still don’t understand who is this common ancestor of birds and dinosaurs. Its like Allan’s claim of the common ancestor to fish and mammals, I have no idea what animal he is talking about. What animal are you referring to which is an ancestor to dinosaurs and birds? What was its survival method?

    First, as it stands now birds are dinosaurs. Please don’t get hung up about it, this is just a technical consequence of birds evolving from theropod ancestors.
    The group that spawned all the ” fluffy” Dinosaurs are Coelurosaurs, a group that started of as small theropod carnivores. You can google them if you like. That will give you a good impression of what that common ancestor must have looked like.

    ETA: removed some words

  14. TristanM: Not when you have scales.

    who said any thing about starting with scales?

    quote:

    “Probably that means the common ancestor of all dinosaurs had feathers,” says study lead author Pascal Godefroit of the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Science in Brussels. “Feathers are not a characteristic [just] of birds but of all dinosaurs.”

    end quote;

    It’s feathers all the way down

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/07/140724-feathered-siberia-dinosaur-scales-science/

    peace

  15. Mung: Fiberglass evolved for insulation.

    The human use of fiberglass evolved for many diverse things. Fiberglass insulation’s properties made it successful, thank God for creating those properties

  16. J-Mac:
    In the evolutionary theory anything is possible. All one needs is chance and necessity… feathers grow or stop growing… same applies to hair an major appendages…. it’s almost miraculous and yet scientific… apparently… or that’s what some would like us to believe….

    Some things are impossible…

  17. Corneel: First, as it stands now birds are dinosaurs. Please don’t get hung up about it, this is just a technical consequence of birds evolving from theropod ancestors.
    The group that spawned all the ” fluffy” Dinosaurs are Coelurosaurs, a group that started of as small theropod carnivores. You can google them if you like. That will give you a good impression of what that common ancestor must have looked like.

    ETA: removed some words

    If Coelurosaur is a type of dinosaur during the Jurassic, I am not sure why you are calling them the common ancestor of dinosaurs and birds.

  18. Corneel: Your house too? Gee, thanks.

    Of course in a different context. If you became my heir and I died for example.

    we call that context “over my dead body”

    😉

    peace

  19. phoodoo: As opposed to what news source is objective William?

    I didn’t claim there was an objective news source. This is about whether something gets reported at all at various major news outlets. Major media outlets are corporate owned and have socio-political agendas. CNN is just the most flagrant in how it chooses stories to present to its viewership.

  20. phoodoo: No, if the claim is that the dinosaurs evolved feathers, because it was for insulation (you know, a lucky accident,

    Sort of , except there was no intent on the part of dinosaurs or feathers to evolve. Unlike the intent of the designer who slowly designed feathers to retain heat.That was certainly lucky since he had yet to design central heating.

    that just so happen to keep you warm)

    That is just physics but I agree it was lucky that the designer created the insulative properties of trapped air in order to later design feathers which were helpful because he designed the Earth with a tilt of its axis in order to design the seasons. Which of course was necessary for the design of Christmas.

    then what other animals are getting lucky accidents for feathers that just so happen to keep you warm?

    Again ,the lucky accident is the design of the insulative properties of trapped air, without that feathers may never have become such a popular design motif

  21. newton,

    So all these years evolutionists tried to claim feathers evolved for flight, they were all wrong, right?

    How many more chances do we give them to be wrong?

  22. phoodoo: If Coelurosaur is a type of dinosaur during the Jurassic, I am not sure why you are calling them the common ancestor of dinosaurs and birds.

    Yeah, I might have explained a bit better.

    Coelurosaurs is the name of the clade that unites birds with most of the feathered Dinosaurs. It includes early members from the Jurassic but also all of the lineages that arose later (T. rex is the most famous one). The idea is that the common ancestor of all these critters resembled early members of that group, like Sinosauropteryx.

    ETA: If you are asking for the common ancestor of birds and ALL Dinosaurs, we need to go further back. It is simply the common ancestor of all Dinosaurs (birds belong to that as well).

  23. phoodoo: So all these years evolutionists tried to claim feathers evolved for flight, they were all wrong, right?

    I thought that was what ID claimed (frontloading). Evolutionists think it was a “lucky accident” right?

  24. Corneel: I thought that was what ID claimed (frontloading). Evolutionists think it was a “lucky accident”right?

    I believe evolutionists believe first you get a lucky accident, then another lucky accident, then another lucky accident, usually taking millions of years, and THIS is what they call evolving.

  25. phoodoo: I believe evolutionists believe first you get a lucky accident, then another lucky accident, then another lucky accident, usually taking millions of years, and THIS is what they call evolving.

    You left out the selection part …. again.

  26. William J. Murray: Tell you about it?Haven’t you been following the news?Oh. Right. CNN.

    Are you referring to the “news” that claimed that they were using the basement of Comet Pizza for pedophile acts? In spite of the fact that Comet Pizza doesn’t have a basement? The claim that a picture of a man wearing a T-shirt with “I [Heart] L’enfants” was a picture of the owner of Comet Pizza? The picture that was actually of the owner of a restaurant named “L’Enfants”? The claim that the use of a triangle symbol was an indication of pedophiles? Why would a pizza joint ever use a triangle as a logo? Maybe they should start investigating Pano’s Pizza, Full Moon Pizza, Marios Pizza, Pizza Cafe, East Coast, etc.?

    Whatever you do, don’t go outside during a thunder storm. That tinfoil hat is bound to attract the lightning.

  27. Robert Byers,

    I would be interested to know when biblical scholars started talking about what was meant by “Kind” in the words from Genesis “Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat …”.

    From the little reading that I have done, the definition has been changed in response to criticism of the fact that it would not be physically possible to house two of every species (or even two of every Genus) on a boat anywhere close to the size described in the bible.

    I find it amusing that the very same people who vehemently oppose changing the definition the word “marriage”, don’t think twice about changing the definition of other words to suit their ideology.

  28. phoodoo:
    newton,

    So all these years evolutionists tried to claim feathers evolved for flight, they were all wrong, right?

    Yes those who said that were wrong, feathers evolved for purpose of creating the quill pens which were used to write the Declaration of Independence.

    How many more chances do we give them to be wrong?

    Interesting question, I would guess it would depend on how they made the mistake.

  29. newton: mber 11, 2017 at 3:17 pm
    Ignored
    phoodoo:
    newton,

    So all these years evolutionists tried to claim feathers evolved for flight, they were all wrong, right?

    Yes, you were wrong every time you made that false claim.

    newton [quoting phoodoo]: How many more chances do we give them to be wrong?

    Oh don’t worry, you’ll be wrong almost every time.

    Too bad that being wrong will never deter you from merely spouting inanities again.

    Glen Davidson

  30. Acartia,

    No, I’m talking about This. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. Shall I stop there? Need more?

    But please, continue to believe what CNN tells you about pizzagate so that you have handy talking points with which to ridicule those who take global human trafficking (especially of minors) very seriously. I understand that, for some, the urge to be condescending, dismissive and demeaning supersedes basic human decency.

  31. William J. Murray: But please, continue to believe what CNN tells you about pizzagate so that you have handy talking points with which to ridicule those who take global human trafficking (especially of minors) very seriously. I understand that, for some, the urge to be condescending, dismissive and demeaning supersedes basic human decency.

    None of your links addresses the claim that a ring was working out of the pizzeria.If anything the false accusation hurts the cause of prevention of human trafficking, seems to me your ire should be focused on those who politicized human suffering solely for political gain.

  32. William J. Murray: No, I’m talking about This. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. Shall I stop there? Need more?

    Strangely, none of these mention Podesta, pizza or Comet. Or pedophile symbols. Or Clinton.

    Nobody has suggested that human trafficking and pedophiles do not exist, and that there have not been efforts to cover them up by some parties. The Catholic Church is proof of this. What was in question was whether or not Podesta’s emails were coded messages for pedophiles and whether Comet Pizza was a location where pedophile acts took place. These are nothing more than unsubstantiated assertions (slander and libel). The fact that you continue to perpetuate them is, frankly, reprehensible. Your logic is the same as KF’s claim that the fact that we haven’t found any “speakeasies” is proof that they must exist.

    A quick search of the CNN website found plenty of stories about pedophiles and arrests.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/29/sex.offender.arrests/
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/05/homeland.arrest/
    http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/08/hundreds-arrested-as-china-police-smash-child-trafficking-ring/
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/opinions/roy-moore-john-conyers-congress-filipovic-opinion/index.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/us/paul-shanley-spotlight-release/index.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/asia/cardinal-pell-australia/index.html
    http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/30/media/alex-jones-apology-pizzagate-james-alefantis/index.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/football/andy-woodward-sexual-abuse-football/index.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/us/penn-state-fine-sandusky-case/index.html

  33. Acartia: Strangely, none of these mention Podesta, pizza or Comet. Or pedophile symbols. Or Clinton.

    …..

    What was in question was whether or not Podesta’s emails were coded messages for pedophiles and whether Comet Pizza was a location where pedophile acts took place.

    That is what is in question for those who have been grossly misled by fake news outlets like CNN about what pizzagate is about.

  34. newton: None of your links addresses the claim that a ring was working out of the pizzeria.

    I don’t recall making such a claim. Could you refresh my memory?

  35. William J. Murray: CNN is just the most flagrant in how it chooses stories to present to its viewership.

    I know – those dinners with the president. Oh, wait. If you think CNN has a greater ideological bias than say FOX, you are living in a world of your own creation that minimally intersects reality.

  36. William J. Murray: That is what is in question for those who have been grossly misled by fake news outlets like CNN about what pizzagate is about.

    No. That is what you have defended here and at UD. KF would say that you are speaking with disregard for the truth. I prefer to simply say that you are lying.

    However, I will certainly apologize to you if you are willing to go on record here and say that, to the best of your knowledge there is no credible evidence that Podesta’s emails had coded pedophile messages or that Comet Pizza was not used as a centre for pedophike activity.

  37. Richardthughes: I know – those dinners with the president. Oh, wait. If you think CNN has a greater ideological bias than say FOX, you are living in a world of your own creation that minimally intersects reality.

    Has that ever really been in question?

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