The first post in this series can be found here:
In part 2, I had planned to discuss why I think the rules aren’t having the desired effects. I still plan to do that. However, in gathering my thoughts, it occurred to me that no one (to my knowledge) has ever made explicit the rationale behind the Guanoing of comments. I think the topic is worthy of an OP of its own.
Lizzie introduces Guano this way:
Comments that seem to me to be in violation of the game rules will be moved here, and closed to further comment. Do not regard having your post moved here as a reprimand, merely as a referee’s whistle.
My question: How exactly does this promote Lizzie’s stated goals for the site?
But the idea here is to provide a venue where people with very different priors can come to discover what common ground they share; what misunderstandings of other views they hold; and, having cleared away the straw men, find out where their real differences lie.
Is the purpose of Guano to punish those who post rule-violating comments? Is it intended as a disincentive for the future posting of such comments? Is it there to protect readers from seeing such comments?
I’m interested in reader’s opinions on what Guanoing actually accomplishes and how it promotes (or doesn’t) the stated aims of the site.
There’s already a solution on the table that Lizzie likes. We just need to figure out how to implement it, either with existing plugins or a new one.
I signed up for a Udemy course on writing WordPress plugins. Moderators, could one of you post a list of the plugins that TSZ is currently using? If they are open-source, I’d like to take a look at the code to see how clean (and modifiable) it is.
We could probably roll our own if necessary — we have some smart coders here.
OK, so in the interim, can a thread author at least say, “Gregory, please don’t post in this discussion anymore, can you start another thread or take it to Noyau or Guano?” Gregory has the option of at least option of being gracious and leaving or being his usual self.
Recently, when Alan Fox asked me to continue a discussion in another thread, I complied. I took no offense. I tried to cooperate. Others can be requested to not participate. I guess it’s up to them if they want to demand to be heard even when few want to hear what they have to say.
As an ID proponent, I could almost relish the demise of a somewhat anti-ID weblog, but I actually like you guys. At the rate this is going the Joe G’s and Gregory’s are going to flood this place and moderating them will be a fulltime guan shovelling affair. Patrick and others are already doing a lot of guano shovelling. What’s the difference if Patrick just un-invites these rude guys before they say something? They can still say their peace, but it doesn’t have to be front page if no one wants to read it.
I have not much dog in this fight except that I actually like the caliber of some of the contributors. You risk driving them away.
One thing that I salute is making Tom English’s last blog stickied on the top.
I respect you want to continue business as usual. As for now, that means keep shoveling stuff to guano. I was just suggesting if Gregory wants to poop in public, he can start his own thread and say what’s on his mind and the admins don’t have to shovel his stuff to guano anymore. Gregory can run his own thread the way he wants, say what he wants. He is free to speak. But the readers don’t have to wade through his crap and the red herrings he starts.
But if Mung love his writings so much, it’s there for all to see, just a mouse scroll away.
Anyway, despite the fact most of TSZ is opposed to my views, I like this weblog. I’d hate to see it devolve into tribal warfare and vast moves to guano.
keiths,
Sure, but WordPress uses PHP. *shudder* That means we’d first have to write a Lisp to PHP translator so that we could write the plugin in a real language.
stcordova,
I tried that last night. It was a mistake.
Here you touch on what I think is the correct solution. We should install a plugin that allows each individual to manage his or her own killfile. Don’t want to see anything I write? Not a problem. Want to prevent someone else from seeing what I write? Not possible.
Good solution. I’m part of an e-mail list. I have auto kill files for 2 people on the e-mail list. Life was much better.
It would probably be easier to switch to using forum software instead of blog software.
Sounds like creationists need another Morton’s Daemon.
So much to deny, so little time.
Neil Rickert,
Usenet still exists. A thin wrapper web UI wrapper around a newsgroup and Bob’s your uncle.
Patrick,
APL, man. APL.
Neil,
True, but I think Lizzie has said she likes the current look and feel of TSZ. We could preserve that if we wrote our own plugin or modified an existing one.
People probably won’t like this idea, but as an alternative to killfiles, is it possible to not display the content of a post but only some sort of header and you have to click on something to display the content?
There’s more than one way to skin a cat and all that.
I’m not convinced. (But then it’s not me who needs convincing.) I really like that we allow anyone who has a genuine point to make to publish an OP. I don’t like the idea that each thread author would control the content of any subsequent discussion. It seems counter to the idea of trying to encourage dialogue across widely-varying points of view.
So I’ve found…
Glen Davidson
We have that in the upper right of the home page. Who posted to what thread. I use it quite effectively to ignore posters.
It’s not perfect. I still see posts that I don’t intend to read. I can skim them while scrolling to the posts I want to read. But I can wait until something interesting is posted before looking at the thread.
I too think we would be asking too much of WordPress. My suggestion, if there is space on the server, would be to run something in parallel. Forum software comes with most of the bells and whistles people are suggesting.
Yes, I’m not going that way. Sorry guys.
ETA: missed the last crop of posts: I was referring to the idea of thread-starters being in charge who can post in the thread.
Knit-your-own Echo Chamber (or even the perception of it) is not what I have in mind here 🙂
Alan,
Hasn’t that been tried already? Nobody used the Penguin Colony, if I’m remembering correctly.
keiths,
It never got off the ground and burned in the first site crash. I see they’ve given it a facelift. “Symposium Pro”! I think it’s still free.
It was used by a thriving community of spambots.
I think that Drupal might do what we want.
🙂
If I may respectfully point out, at the rate guano is filling up, the moderators are essentially forcing comments out of discussions anyway. The structure I suggested is already being partially realized because of the bad behavior going around.
I gave my first choice suggestion, my second choice is Patrick’s idea of enabling kill filters. I’d suggest encouraging all users to utilize the feature to the fullest.
Since I’m pro-ID I probably should not be giving too many suggestions to help a generally anti-ID site, but this is one of the few venues for me personally where I feel the quality of opposing viewpoints is better than what I see elsewhere.
As far as a somewhat quieter venue, there is Larry Moran’s site, but he is the sole author. There isn’t as much invective there between participants because he focuses on biochemistry and other specialized topics. It’s a pretty open venue for commenters, but there isn’t a lot of acrimony there because it’s a little too nerdy for some. Even though he goes on and on and call ID proponents IDiots, surprisingly he doesn’t seem to stir the same level conflict in the comment section as seen at TSZ.
But because TSZ goes a lot into the philosophical issues, one can expect a lot of discussion….
Well anyway, good luck with your blog. Thanks to you and the admins for hosting this venue.
Moderators, could one of you post a list of the plugins that TSZ is currently using? If they are open-source, I’d like to take a look at the code to see how clean (and modifiable) it is.
Elizabeth,
I agree with this.
I have no suggestions for Moderation and don’t really care what is decided. Lizzie’s done a rather good job so far, imho. When she takes little vacations from the site, the level often deteriorates. My criticism of this site is based on the majority atheist and anti-theist presence (which is neither an accurate representation of UK, USA or global society or most scientific communities), rather than the way it is administrated/moderated.
I have posted here because it is anti-IDism and grew out of Uncommon Descent, which is basically a cesspit of IDists, with a few decent posters, e.g. VJTorley (who doesn’t actually promote the DI’s IDism, but rather his own clearly theistic version of uppercase ‘Intelligent Design’). One can count on News to continue to dig up articles that usually show the vacuity of the IDM, rather than it’s ‘brilliance,’ so I check in from time to time. But I don’t come to this site for any sort inspiration, enlightenment, knowledge or even scientific expertise. Threads like the ones Tom English recently started and some of which Joe Felsenstein initiates I find valuable in the anti-ID discourse.
What I find absolutely hilarious in this thread is stcordova first, comparing me with JoeG, and second, talking about ‘useless spam,’ when stcordova has posted more YECist ‘useless spam’ and continues to do so than pretty much an IDist/creationist on the web. It displays an IDist fear of someone who has seen behind the curtain of the wizard of Oz; the Discovery Institute is not such a credible place nor IDist leaders as clever, innocent or intelligent as IDists like stcordova seem to believe. The fact is that stcordova knows he can’t game me, so he chooses not to play.
stcordova openly admits he uses ‘debate’ at TAMSZ as a game to ‘hone his skills’ like a gambling IDist/creationist vs. anti-IDists and anti-YECists. This is why he is now kissing up to the admin team here. He wants to keep playing with you, to keep gaming you; with absolutely no genuine interest in learning how to grow out of the fanatical ideologies that grip both his spiritual and ‘intellectual’ life, i.e. YECism and IDism.
What slimy IDists like Salvador seem intent to ignore and avoid is that they insult the intelligence and wisdom of their fellow religious believers with their fanatical ‘creationist’ ideology. In this sense, stcordova is more of a cultist, than a scholar of any sort. Cozying up to atheist/skeptics and then repeatedly ignoring them in one’s authored threads when commentors expose the scientific failures of one’s ideologies isn’t exactly an admirable Christian position for stcordova to hold.
Cult of Cardoza? Sounds enticing. Are there Virgins?
I’ve already suggested that the creator of a thread be restored the same abilities they had before Alan Fox took apparently unilateral action to remove those abilities.
Unlike Sal, I never advocated banning anyone from a thread. Also, unlike Sal, I do not condone changing the contents of a post to make it appear like the poster said something other than what he actually wrote. That’s despicable and demonstrates a serious character flaw.