Untruth Social

Dishonesty is the defining characteristics of Trump and his administration, and lies are a daily occurrence. While there are far too many lies to track, I thought a thread dedicated to the worst and most notable lies would be useful. There’s a lot of material to choose from.

(I could have tapped into a rich vein of lies simply by linking to Trump’s Truth Social account — hence the OP title.) 

631 thoughts on “Untruth Social

  1. Erik: Please do tell more. Speak in full sentences, if you can.

    I don’t have access to reliable news, as you do. The name came up, and I thought you could enlighten us.

  2. A couple of weeks ago, colewd wrote:

    I don’t think we can easily choose politicians based on spin as it is commonly used. I think we can separate them by those who meet their campaign commitments and those who make commitments we prefer.

    I responded:

    Trump’s most important commitment as far as voters were concerned was his promise that he would bring down prices starting on Day One. He made that promise again and again on the campaign trail. Based on the evidence I presented earlier in the thread, do you acknowledge that he has failed miserably to deliver on that promise?

    As expected, Bill dodged the question.

    Here’s another spectacular example of a failed Trump commitment, helpfully recounted by Representative Jim McGovern:

    Trump’s healthcare plan through the years, lol

    Obviously a failed commitment, but also relevant to the thread because Trump has been lying for a decade, repeatedly claiming to have a healthcare plan when none existed.

    What do you say, Bill? Was your Dear Leader lying, or are you going to claim that he’s been so out of it for a decade that he can’t separate fantasy from reality and truly believed, every time he said it, that he and the Republicans had a healthcare plan that they were about to release?

  3. petrushka: I don’t have access to reliable news, as you do. The name came up, and I thought you could enlighten us.

    I could, but won’t. You brought it up, so by all means enlighten yourself. It barely relates to the topic. More properly related to Trump, you should investigate why Trump’s own wives are imported from behind the Iron Curtain.

  4. colewd,

    I did not vote for him in 2020 because of some of the negative qualities you see.

    And yet you defend to the hilt this far worse version of him we see now? Weird. It’s a daily display of childish malignancy. Fascinating like the cartoon baddie in a soap.

  5. colewd,

    in some cases have their own money so they are less vulnerable to being bought and want to do the right thing for the voters.

    This, I must say, is a worryingly naive stance. People who have achieved great wealth are frequently addicted to acquisition; the most corrupt of all. Personally, I wish billionaires would fuck off out of politics. They can never have enough, and don’t give a shit about you or I.

  6. colewd,

    You have not proven a single lie. If you do I will be happy to acknowledge it.

    Sorry, but this is positively Trumpian. Not one single lie? No-one but yourself is fooled by this.

  7. colewd:

    …in some cases have their own money so they are less vulnerable to being bought and want to do the right thing for the voters.

    Allan:

    This, I must say, is a worryingly naive stance. People who have achieved great wealth are frequently addicted to acquisition; the most corrupt of all.

    Trump being the poster boy for this. A $400 million Qatari jet, refurbished at a cost of $1 billion taxpayer dollars; the selling of pardons; the crypto scams; his attempt to steal $250 million from the DOJ as compensation for daring to investigate his actual crimes, etc.

    Amusing that Bill thinks a man this corrupt can’t possibly be dishonest. Given everything else that’s horrible about Trump, it would be a shock if he weren’t a rampant liar.

  8. Allan Miller,

    As time permits, I’ll point to some of the falsehoods in Trump’s speech and you can make your case for why none of them are lies. Or you can run away, which is what you’ll probably do.

    Keiths after all his pontification has to rely on a burden shift fallacy.

    Sorry, but this is positively Trumpian. Not one single lie? No-one but yourself is fooled by this.

    This is me showing you why your accidental or purposeful attempts at propaganda are not effective and frankly boring. Use the proper words to describe what you are trying to articulate. It’s not that hard. Trump has made false statements. With this we have common ground.

  9. colewd: Trump has made false statements.

    Name one so that it would be clear what you mean.

    Do you know the meaning of the word “lie”? Surely somebody somewhere has lied, in your opinion. If you cannot do it for Trump, point out a lie by anyone else, hopefully starting by the biased propaganda that you claim to be seeing in every post here.

    So long and happy holidays, you brainwashed liar cultist.

  10. colewd:
    Allan Miller,

    Keiths after all his pontification has to rely on a burden shift fallacy.

    He’s not shifted the burden. He’s detailed some lies, as have I (via Grok). Your response is that it is all – ALL, mind you – propaganda. Invited to justify that claim, you shout “burden shift”. It isn’t. I don’t think you really know what it means.

    This me showing you why your accidental or purposeful attempts at propaganda are not effective and frankly boring.

    This is you showing that you cannot defend your claim of propaganda, and painting yourself as quite ridiculously cultist into the bargain.

    Use the proper words to describe what you are trying to articulate.It’s not that hard.Trump has made false statements.With this we have common ground.

    He has lied. That is the proper word for what he has done. Attempting to sanitise it by claiming he does not know he’s lying is just silly semantics. Bill Clinton didn’t know he had sexual relations with “that woman”. He thought it was in reference to some other woman, and anyway a blow job isn’t really sex. See how silly it looks?

  11. Trump should be in the Guinness Book of Records for the greatest number of false statements made without uttering a single lie … in history. No-one”s seen anything like this before…

  12. colewd:

    Keiths after all his pontification has to rely on a burden shift fallacy.

    I’m disappointed, Bill. “Burden of proof” was on your homework list but you still haven’t cottoned on to the concept.

    Here’s an example of the burden shift fallacy. Suppose I claim that my Toyota Camry was manufactured on Venus. You don’t believe me, so I demand that you prove it wasn’t manufactured there. I’m making an extraordinary claim, and I’m unfairly shifting the burden to you to prove that I’m wrong. The onus is on me to prove my wild claim, not on you to disprove it.

    Now suppose I claim that my Camry was made in Toyota’s Kentucky plant, and I provide you with documentation showing that it was made there. You claim I’m wrong and that it was actually made somewhere else. I demand that you prove it. Am I unfairly shifting the burden of proof? Clearly not.

    The parallel should be obvious, but I’ll spell it out anyway. I claim Trump is a liar. I’ve provided a ton of evidence. You disagree. If Trump doesn’t lie, then every statement of his that I’m calling a lie isn’t actually a lie. Show me that I’m wrong. I’ve met my burden, and the onus is now on you to meet yours. Crying “burden shift fallacy!” is just an excuse you’re using to shirk that burden.

    Do you think that anyone reading this thread hasn’t noticed that whenever I want to talk about the evidence, you run away? We all know that if you could prove me wrong, you would jump on it and do so with relish. You would welcome the evidence instead of shying away from it. But evidence scares you, because evidence points to the truth and as a cult member, truth is your enemy.

    I’ll repeat my most recent challenge, which is about Trump’s claims spanning an entire decade of having a healthcare plan that he would reveal any day now:

    Was your Dear Leader lying, or are you going to claim that he’s been so out of it for a decade that he can’t separate fantasy from reality and truly believed, every time he said it, that he and the Republicans had a healthcare plan that they were about to release?

    I’ve met my burden by directing your attention to the Jim McGovern video. The burden is now yours. Will you shoulder it by facing the evidence, or will you run away yet again?

  13. I missed this at the time, but Trump said this 10 days ago at his business roundtable:

    No reason we can’t have 25% GDP growth, says Trump

    At this point, I think the matter is settled: Trump is the stupidest president in American history. Imagine what those tech leaders were thinking as they listened politely to that moronic monologue.

    That’s Trump’s stupidity on display, but not his dishonesty. I posted it here, however, because it reminded me of one of Trump’s lies: his claim to have graduated first in his class at Wharton.

    We already know that it’s a lie, but even if we didn’t, Trump’s statement above would clinch it. No one who graduated first in his business school class would be stupid enough to say that 25% GDP growth is possible.

    Trump wasn’t first in his class and he received no honors at graduation. He wasn’t even on the 56-person Dean’s List.

    Bill, do you acknowledge that Trump is lying when he makes that claim? Or do you think he’s so addled and deluded that he truly believes he graduated at the top of his class?

  14. The name of Kennedy Center was changed to Trump-Kennedy Center, formally by its board of trustees https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/kennedy-center-renamed-trump-kennedy-center-white-house/story?id=128528280

    “Well, I was honored by it. It’s board, it’s a very distinguished board, most distinguished people in the country. And I was surprised by it. I was honored by it,” Trump said.

    The board of trustees is this https://www.kennedy-center.org/about-us/leadership/trustees/

    Trump himself chairs the board. The members of the board are his family and members of his administration. Other members of the board say they were muted during the discussion, so the vote to put Trump’s name on the Center came out unanimous.

    Trump is surprised and honored by that the board that he chairs, made up of members he handpicked, does his bidding? Easily another lie.

  15. Allan Miller,

    This is you showing that you cannot defend your claim of propaganda, and painting yourself as quite ridiculously cultist into the bargain

    Do you understanding mislabeling a false statement as a lie is propaganda. This is what the media did with the Washington Posts “research”. You ran with the media propaganda and did not look carefully at the claims you were making.
    Allan Miller,

    He has lied. That is the proper word for what he has done. Attempting to sanitise it by claiming he does not know he’s lying is just silly semantics. Bill Clinton didn’t know he had sexual relations with “that woman”. He thought it was in reference to some other woman, and anyway a blow job isn’t really sex. See how silly it looks?

    Bill Clintons claim was shown to be a false statement on actual action he knowingly took. This is how you prove a lie. He said no sexual relations and they found his sperm on the dress. Lie proven.

    Try to find this type of situation with Trump and I will gladly agree with you.

    What is the issue? Is “false statement” not strong enough for your demonisation strategy? Why this is important is because you are naive enough to think the media spin of 30000 lies is well researched.

    You and Keiths are wasting time and are on the wrong track if you want to support the liberal Democratic Party. You need a positive message as enough of the public is conscious of the dishonesty in the biased media. You and Keiths are singing a song the failed in 2024.

  16. colewd: You and Keiths are singing a song the failed in 2024.

    Washington Post documented Trump’s lies only for his first term. Incidentally, Trump lost elections in 2020.

    Or did Trump win in 2020? Trump says he really won and the elections were rigged. I say that Trump lies about this. I also say that if you say that Trump is not lying about this, it makes you a liar – and a brainwashed cultist. Whatever, everybody knows this about you already.

  17. colewd: He said no sexual relations and they found his sperm on the dress. Lie proven.

    This pair of statements demonstrates that you have fully succumbed to the cult. You have conveniently forgotten your own definition of a lie, which we have been explaining to you is of no practical use.
    For Clinton’s statement to be a lie per Bill Cole, we need to demonstrate that Clinton knew that the statement was false when he made it. Perhaps the BJ was not particularly memorable and he had forgotten about it. Perhaps he had senile dementia. Using Bill Cole’s criterion, the lie has NOT been proven.
    Do you dispute that Trump made over 30,000 “False or Misleading Statements” during his first term? Because that is what the Post is claiming.

  18. colewd:

    Bill Clintons claim was shown to be a false statement on actual action he knowingly took. This is how you prove a lie. He said no sexual relations and they found his sperm on the dress. Lie proven.

    According to you, the only way to prove a lie is to prove beyond any doubt that the statement was intentionally false. Can you do that with Clinton’s statement? No. As Allan points out, we can’t prove that in his mind, it wasn’t some other woman, not Monica Lewinsky. We also can’t prove that he considered blowjobs to be a form of “sexual relations”. In fact, he actually made the argument (in a deposition, no less) that oral sex doesn’t qualify. As Jock points out, we can’t prove that he hadn’t forgotten about the blowjob when he made that statement. We can’t prove, for example, that the strong emotions around his impeachment didn’t cause him to repress the memory.

    We (and you) believe that Clinton was lying despite not being able to prove the above. Why? Because we weigh the competing alternatives and decide that “he was lying” fits the evidence far better than “it wasn’t intentional”. Your stated standard is bogus, and you yourself aren’t applying it to Clinton.

    The real standard is “which conclusion is best supported by the evidence, and how convincingly?” In the case of Trump, the answer is, for a huge number of false statements he’s made, that he is lying. He’s saying something false and he knows it’s false. Whether or not that upsets you is irrelevant. It’s the truth, and reality doesn’t care how you feel about it.

    You say he doesn’t know that his statements are false. Let’s apply the actual standard — the one you applied to Bill Clinton — to Trump’s claim about Wharton. He has said repeatedly that he was first in his class. We know that his claim is false. What are the competing explanations of his false statement?

    I say it was intentional, because it fits his established pattern of saying things that make him look better, smarter, or more accomplished than he actually is, and I can supply literally dozens of examples of him doing this.

    You say it was unintentional. How do you explain that? Did he forget that he didn’t graduate at the top of the class? Did he forget what the word ‘first’ means? Did he mean ‘first’ in the sense of ‘most likely to lie about my achievements’? What is your explanation?

    Your choice: 1) admit that Trump is lying, or 2) claim that Trump’s memory is so completely shot so that he can’t even remember this major event in his life, or that he’s so deluded that he has confused his narcissistic fantasy of being first in his class with the reality that he was no better than 57th, or that he doesn’t know what the word ‘first’ means.

    Which is it? Lying, or mentally incompetent? Neither is very appetizing to a cult member. Or will you take option #3, your preferred option, which is to run away, lobbing a few false accusations of ‘propaganda!’ at us as you go? My money is on #3, and I haven’t lost yet. I hope one day I will lose and that you’ll actually stand your ground instead of fleeing.

  19. colewd:

    What is the issue? Is “false statement” not strong enough for your demonisation strategy? Why this is important…

    Because there’s a difference between lying vs making unintentionally false statements — a difference that you have repeatedly emphasized. We respect the truth and want to represent it accurately. “Trump is a liar” is a true statement. “Trump makes false statements, but he doesn’t lie” is a false statement. This may be difficult for you to understand, but we prefer truth to falsehood. We accept the truth rather than trying to distort or deny it. We are not cult members, and we are not in a battle against truth and reality in order to defend the reputation of a cult leader. It doesn’t cause us anguish to acknowledge when a politician lies, whether Republican or Democrat, Labour or Conservative, or whether we voted for them or not. For you it’s an emotional crisis, at least where Trump is concerned. That’s cultish, and it’s why we shake our heads at your slavish devotion.

    …is because you are naive enough to think the media spin of 30000 lies is well researched.

    The reason I trust the WaPo database is simple: I am not an idiot.

    Consider:

    a) I have personally fact-checked many entries and found them to be correct. What are the odds that all of the entries I picked just happened to be correct if the database is a poorly-researched sham? Do I think it’s just coincidence? No. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    b) the NYU School of Journalism nominated the database for its list of the Top Ten Works of Journalism of the Decade. Would they have done so if the database were sloppy and riddled with errors? I don’t think so. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    c) The Washington Post is widely regarded as the second most prestigious newspaper in the country. It has a stellar journalistic reputation. They jealously guard that reputation, and part of that involves issuing retractions when they get something wrong. They haven’t retracted the database or any part of it. Do I think the WaPo editors suddenly decided “Who cares about our reputation? Let’s publish a bunch of false crap that anyone can see is bullshit.” Did the reporters who worked on the database think “Who cares about our journalistic careers? Let’s wreck them by falsely trashing Trump. We can always get a job at 7-11”? I don’t believe the editors or the reporters thought either of those things. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    d) not a single reporter on the left or right has published an exposé of the WaPo database. Did every reporter in the world who looked at the database think “this is trash, and I could make my reputation and probably win a Pulitzer if I reported on it, but who cares about prizes (just ask Donald Trump) and careers? I’ll pass.” Did Sean Hannity, Jesse Watters, Kash Patel and Benny Johnson all look at it and think “this database is crap, but I would hate to defend Trump and besmirch the reputation of the Post by commenting on it, so I’ll just keep quiet”? I don’t believe so. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    e) Trump has been involved in over 4,000 lawsuits and sues people at the drop of a hat. He has sued multiple media outlets including the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and the BBC. If the WaPo database is trash, then Trump would have an easy win in court. Did Trump think to himself “I don’t want the money, and I don’t want to vindicate myself. I’m happy if people think I’ve told thousands of lies. Plus those folks at the Post are good people and I wouldn’t want to hurt them.” I don’t believe he thought that. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    You’re free to believe all that stuff. I demur. Why? Because I am not an idiot.

    The WaPo database is reliable, and Trump is a liar. Even if the database somehow weren’t reliable, Trump would still be a liar. Dozens of outlets besides the the WaPo have documented his lies. I’ve personally fact-checked dozens of his claims, found them to be false, and presented the evidence at TSZ for over eight months. Some of it is stupidity and ignorance, not dishonesty, but much of it — a pathological amount, in fact — is deliberate. He’s a liar. Why am I so sure of that? It’s because I am not an idiot.

  20. colewd:

    You and Keiths are wasting time and are on the wrong track if you want to support the liberal Democratic Party. You need a positive message as enough of the public is conscious of the dishonesty in the biased media. You and Keiths are singing a song the failed in 2024.

    This thread is not about the Democratic Party. We are not strategizing on behalf of the Democratic Party. We are not discussing the best message for the Democratic Party ahead of the midterms. We are not trying to win an election for the Democratic Party.

    This thread is about Trump’s dishonesty. He’s a pathological liar, as you would expect of a malignant narcissist. We’ve documented it in detail. You claim he isn’t a liar. You haven’t refuted a single one of our claims. We’ve succeeded. You’ve failed. Trump is a liar, and that question has long been settled.

    At this point, the thread is simply about cataloguing additional Trump lies — they’re getting increasingly bizarre — and about watching you, a grown man, deny something that is obvious to the rest of us. It’s fascinating. You’re starting to remind me of the man Michael Graziano described who was convinced that he had a squirrel in his head and could not be persuaded otherwise, despite the illogicality of it and the evidence disproving it. For you, Trump’s honesty is like that squirrel: completely fictional, but you will believe in it to the death, in the teeth of the evidence.

  21. keiths,

    At this point, the thread is simply about cataloguing additional Trump lies — they’re getting increasingly bizarre — and about watching you, a grown man, deny something that is obvious to the rest of us. It’s fascinating. You’re starting to remind me of the man Michael Graziano described who was convinced that he had a squirrel in his head and could not be persuaded otherwise, despite the illogicality of it and the evidence disproving it. For you, Trump’s honesty is like that squirrel: completely fictional, but you will believe in it to the death, in the teeth of the evidence.

    Since you have not proven one lie to a known legal standard where are you with this post? Where is the endgame for you in this exercise?

  22. colewd:

    Since you have not proven one lie to a known legal standard where are you with this post?

    The legal standard is “preponderance of the evidence” in civil cases and “beyond a reasonable doubt” in criminal cases. We’ve met both of those standards repeatedly. Do you seriously think, for example, that a jury wouldn’t conclude that Trump is lying about being first in his class at Wharton? What is your explanation of why he is making that false claim?

    Where is the endgame for you in this exercise?

    I’ve already stated it. We’ve proven the lying. Now it’s just a matter of documenting the continued lies and observing, with fascination, your denial of reality.

  23. keiths,

    I’ve already stated it. We’ve proven the lying. Now it’s just a matter of documenting the continued lies and observing, with fascination, your denial of reality.

    From Grok

    No, Donald Trump did not personally claim to have graduated first in his class from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. The claim originated in early media profiles, such as New York Times articles from 1973 and 1976, which stated he “graduated first in his class” in 1968. These reports were widely repeated in subsequent profiles, but Trump himself has not been documented directly asserting this specific phrase in interviews, books, or public statements

    Can you refute Grok’s claim?

  24. colewd:

    Can you refute Grok’s claim?

    Yes, and I did so in this October comment:

    Despite all of that, Trump continually brags about having attended Wharton. For example, Kari Lake said:

    And he just said, ‘Kari, I never thought this is what my future would look like, when I graduated first in my class at Wharton. I didn’t think they’d be indicting me and trying to call me a criminal.’ But, but he’s OK with it.

    He wasn’t first in his class. He wasn’t even in the top 56, all of whom were on the Dean’s List. Trump wasn’t. He also wasn’t among the honorees listed on the graduation program.

    Yet more evidence of his insecurity, pathological dishonesty, and narcissism. The man is truly pathetic.

    None of this is surprising. I can provide example after example of Trump lying about his achievements. Here’s another earlier comment:

    It’s pitiful that Donald Trump of all people wanted a military parade, considering that he is a draft dodger who has repeatedly denigrated the military. And yes, Bill, those are substantiated claims, not “spin” or “propaganda”.

    Draft dodger: Trump obtained a bogus letter from a doctor certifying that he had bone spurs and could not serve in Vietnam. In reality, Trump had participated in high school athletics, playing football and baseball (and has claimed that he was “always the best athlete” at his military academy, which is a lie) and even made this claim:

    I was supposed to be a pro baseball player… I was still thinking in high school that I had a shot at the Major Leagues until I attended a tryout with another young kid named Willie McCovey. I watched him hit the ball, and I said I really believe I will enjoy the real estate business for my entire life. I had always felt like the best player until I saw that man hit.

    It’s a lie. McCovey was Rookie of the Year in the Majors when Trump was still in the eighth grade. What a pathetic, insecure, dishonest man. And yes, a draft-dodger. Those bone spurs are obviously fictional.

    Also, I just re-Googled and found this Slate article about more of Trump’s baseball lies.

    Trump is a malignant narcissist, and malignant narcissists lie. And lie. And lie.

  25. colewd:
    Allan Miller,

    Do you understanding mislabeling a false statement as a lie is propaganda.

    Or just incorrect… So the burden of proof on you is to show that a ‘false statement’ was so mislabelled. Presumably, you demand access to his mental state. In which case, Bill Clinton was not shown to lie. Just propaganda.

    This is what the media did with the Washington Posts “research”.You ran with the media propaganda and did not look carefully at the claims you were making.

    So look carefully on my behalf. O Wise One. Show me the error of my ways, with evidence rather than handwaving.

    This is how you prove a lie.He said no sexual relations and they found his sperm on the dress.Lie proven.

    Yeah, but he didn’t think he was lying, right?

    Try to find this type of situation with Trump and I will gladly agree with you.

    You want me to show you a spunk-soaked dress?

    What is the issue?Is “false statement” not strong enough for your demonisation strategy?

    I don’t have such a strategy. Because I’m not a blinkered cultist, I am happy to call repeated assertions that are the opposite of reality: lies. Knowingly made. I don’t think he’s as stupid as you seem to think.

    Why this is important is because you are naive enough to think the media spin of 30000 lies is well researched.

    I don’t think it at all naive to consider it improbable that an important newspaper making a huge number of accusations against a litigious and powerful individual, with receipts, failed to do due diligence on a single one.

    You and Keiths are wasting time and are on the wrong track if you want to support the liberal Democratic Party.

    I’m not American. You may have forgotten since yesterday.

    You need a positive message as enough of the public is conscious of the dishonesty in the biased media.You and Keiths are singing a song the failed in 2024.

    Because of blinkered cultists like yourself, agreed. That’s not a ‘lazy label’, btw, but based on your absurdly extreme stance in his defence.

  26. keiths,

    He wasn’t first in his class. He wasn’t even in the top 56, all of whom were on the Dean’s List. Trump wasn’t. He also wasn’t among the honorees listed on the graduation program.

    You’re still unable to support the claim directly so I must assume you did not research your claim before you made it.

  27. Allan Miller,

    Because of blinkered cultists like yourself, agreed. That’s not a ‘lazy label’, btw, but based on your abbsurdly extreme stance in his defence.

    This is not about Trumps defence it’s about making claims you can back up with facts.

  28. colewd:

    You’re still unable to support the claim directly so I must assume you did not research your claim before you made it.

    He said it directly to Kari Lake, Bill. She quoted him. Do direct quotes not count? Newspaper articles quote people. Should we disbelieve every quote in every news article if we didn’t hear it ourselves, directly from the person being quoted?

    Your MO is obvious:

    1. You assume your conclusion. In this case, your assumption is that Trump isn’t a liar.

    2. You’re confronted with evidence that your conclusion is false. This distresses you.

    3. You search for some excuse to dismiss the evidence, no matter how flimsy the excuse.

    4. You cling to your assumed conclusion based on the flimsy excuse.

    By contrast, here’s my MO:

    1. Consider a claim.

    2. Look at the evidence for and against the claim.

    3. Ask, based on the evidence, whether the claim is more likely to be true or false.

    4. Believe or disbelieve accordingly, with a degree of certainty based on the strength of the evidence. If the evidence is inconclusive, remain noncommittal.

    In the case of Trump and Wharton, the totality of the evidence favors the claim. Consider: Trump notoriously brags every chance he gets. Many (if not most) of his boasts are false. Kari Lake quotes Trump making one of those false boasts (which she presumably believed). Which is more likely? a) that Trump made yet another false boast, in perfect keeping with his character and personal history, or b) that Kari Lake is lying about it for some reason, or is genuinely confused, or hallucinated an encounter with Trump in which he said he was first in his class? And that Trump would never intentionally say something false in order to make himself look better? It’s laughable.

    He lies about his golf tournament victories. He posted fake Time magazine covers in his golf clubs. He lied about his baseball tryout with Willie McCovey. He lied about being the best athlete at his school. He lies about his wealth — ever hear the “John Barron” story? He lies about having stopped six/seven/eight/ten wars. He lies about his crowd sizes. He lies about his legislative achievements. He lies about the economy. He lies about the murder rate in Washington following his National Guard deployment.

    He lies about all of that, but you want us to believe that he wouldn’t lie about being first in his class at Wharton?

  29. Sheesh. Trying to show that Trump lies is like trying to show that the sun rises in the morning. If someone is denying that, does anyone think evidence matters?

    Bill’s rationale is quite straightforward: He believes he’s telling the truth, showing us that with proper motivation, a liar can actually believe total nonsense. Understanding what motivates Bill to lie so flagrantly would require a mind reader with a very strong stomach.

    (And I continue to marvel at all the reporters asking Trump questions knowing they’ll get a reply inconsistent with both reality and with the last answer he gave, which in turn will be inconsistent with the previous answer. It used to be that Presidential answers were news and were meaningful, and the press pool still haven’t adapted. I wonder why.)

  30. keiths,

    This is second hand Keiths. You’re making a claim about 30000 lies and trying to paint him as more dishonest than other politicians. With 30000 original or repeats of “misinformation”. you cannot show a single smoking gun like we had with Bill Clinton. Clinton got caught in impeachment. Trump was impeached twice and there is no lie you can pin on him based on information from the horses mouth?

    From Grok about Biden: Asked if Joe Biden lied about his academic record as I asked it about Trump.

    Yes, Joe Biden made false statements about his academic ranking during his 1987 presidential campaign. Specifically, in a New Hampshire campaign appearance on April 3, 1987, he claimed that he had initially ranked in the bottom two-thirds of his class at Syracuse University College of Law but improved to finish in the top half. In reality, Biden graduated in 1968 ranked 76th out of 85 students, placing him near the bottom of his class throughout law school.
    apnews.com

    Biden later admitted in September 1987 that his recollections were inaccurate, attributing the misstatement to exaggeration when angry, and he did not repeat the claim afterward. This incident occurred amid broader scrutiny of his academic record, including a separate plagiarism issue from his first year of law school, which he also acknowledged as inadvertent.

  31. Flint:

    Bill’s rationale is quite straightforward: He believes he’s telling the truth, showing us that with proper motivation, a liar can actually believe total nonsense. Understanding what motivates Bill to lie so flagrantly would require a mind reader with a very strong stomach.

    I go back and forth on that. Sometimes I think Bill knows that Trump is a liar, but that he lies about it because he wants to protect his Dear Leader’s reputation. At other times I think he truly believes that Trump isn’t a liar, because he’s in denial in order to protect himself from the emotional cost of acknowledging the truth. It might even be a combination of the two: Bill might know that Trump is a liar but be deluded enough to think that it isn’t as bad as we claim. In that case he may be wagering that it’s better to lie about Trump than to try the “sure he lies, but it’s no big deal” approach.

    I’ll indulge in some more psychologizing later. Bill is a fascinating case study.

  32. colewd:

    From Grok about Biden: Asked if Joe Biden lied about his academic record as I asked it about Trump.

    What does Joe Biden have to do with this? The thread topic is Trump’s dishonesty.

    This is second hand Keiths.

    Your desperation is showing, but let’s humor you. I’ve explained why I think Trump claimed to have been first in his class at Wharton, and I can elaborate on that. It’s your turn: explain why you think he hasn’t made that claim. Then we can compare explanations to see which one better fits the evidence.

    Do you think Kari Lake lied about what Trump told her? If so, why? Do you think she imagined that conversation? Does that really strike you as more probable than that Trump made the claim, considering that he has a track record of lying about his achievements?

    You’re making a claim about 30000 lies…

    We’re still waiting for you to point to any errors in the WaPo database.

    …and trying to paint him as more dishonest than other politicians.

    He is by far the most dishonest president of my lifetime. The only president who has told so many lies that it takes a frikkin’ database to track all of them.

    With 30000 original or repeats of “misinformation”. you cannot show a single smoking gun…

    If the guns I’ve pointed to aren’t smoking, why haven’t you refuted a single one of my claims?

    …and there is no lie you can pin on him based on information from the horses mouth?

    Of course there are. I’ve been pointing them out for months, but you keep running away whenever I ask you to discuss the evidence with me. Just a few comments ago I quoted a lie that came straight from the horse’s mouth:

    I was supposed to be a pro baseball player… I was still thinking in high school that I had a shot at the Major Leagues until I attended a tryout with another young kid named Willie McCovey. I watched him hit the ball, and I said I really believe I will enjoy the real estate business for my entire life. I had always felt like the best player until I saw that man hit.

    McCovey was already a major leaguer by the time Trump finished the eighth grade. Do you think the eighth-grade Donald Trump was trying out for the majors along with Willie McCovey? The horse lied, Bill.

    The “first in his class” lie isn’t the only one he’s told about his academic record. The horse told Piers Morgan:

    I always told people, you know, I’m a very smart guy. I got good marks. I was all this, I went to the best college: the Wharton School of finance, which to me is like the greatest business school.

    He told CNN:

    I went to the Wharton School of Finance. I got very good marks. I was a good student. It’s the best business school in the world, as far as I’m concerned.

    One might expect the Braggart in Chief to crow about his good grades, but no. He actually ordered Michael Cohen to threaten anyone who might release them. Cohen testified under oath to Congress:

    I’m talking about a man who declares himself brilliant, but directed me to threaten his high school, his colleges and the College Board to never release his grades or SAT scores. I’m giving the Committee today copies of a letter I sent at Mr. Trump’s direction threatening these schools with civil and criminal actions if Mr. Trump’s grades or SAT scores were ever disclosed without his permission.

    Fordham, which Trump attended before transferring to Wharton, confirmed Cohen’s story.

    Tried out for the major leagues with Willie McCovey? Nope. Got good grades in college? No way. Let’s hear your explanations, Bill.

  33. keiths:

    I’ll indulge in some more psychologizing later. Bill is a fascinating case study.

    I note that during Trump’s first term, the media kind of pulled a Bill, reporting that, well, maybe Trump didn’t understand, or maybe his advisers misled him, or maybe he hadn’t been filled in on the background, or whatever. But after 10 or 20 thousand documented lies, the message shifted, and Trump was simply declared a pathological liar. Even his niece Mary has said Donald lies for sport, because he enjoys it (especially if it hurts someone), so he lies even when there’s no other reason for doing so. If he weren’t well aware he was lying, that would take all the fun out of it.

    It used to be said that liars needed good memories to keep their lies straight, but Trump’s memory is poor to begin with, and keeping a story straight becomes impossible after tens of thousands of lies anyway. It’s pretty clear Trump doesn’t really care how obvious his lies are, since he suffers no consequences for them. Republicans in Congress fear to contradict him, because there are too many Bills out there with votes but not a lick of sense. For me, the stunning thing is that there are over 70 million of them.

  34. colewd,

    Here’s some more from the horse’s mouth. On Truth Social in Jan 2024, he neighed:

    Also, I was never on Epstein’s Plane or at his “stupid” Island.

    And here’s an email from an Assistant US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, dated Jan 8 2020. It was released today as part of the Epstein files:

    Subject: RE: Epstein flight records

    For your situational awareness, wanted to let you know that the flight records we received yesterday reflect that Donald Trump traveled on Epstein’s private jet many more times than previously has been reported (or that we were aware), including during the period we would expect to charge in a Maxwell case. In particular, he is listed as a passenger on at least eight flights between 1993 and 1996, including at least four flights on which Maxwell was also present. He is listed as having traveled with, among others and at various times, Marla Maples, his daughter Tiffany, and his son Eric. On one flight in 1993, he and Epstein are the only two listed passengers; on another, the only three passengers are Epstein, Trump, and then-20-year-old <name redacted>. On two other flights, two of the passengers, respectively, were women who would be possible witnesses in a Maxwell case. We’ve just finished reviewing the full records (more than 100 pages of very small script) and didn’t want any of this to be a surprise down the road.

    Your Dear Leader lied about never flying on Epstein’s plane. Not hard to figure out why.

    Will you argue that it was an innocent mistake, and that he simply forgot? After all, flying eight times in three years on Epstein’s private jet, including once with Epstein alone and once with him and a 20-year woman, isn’t very memorable. It’s easy to forget. I personally can’t remember whether I flew on Epstein’s plane. Who remembers things like that? I’m sure it just slipped Trump’s mind.

  35. Trump 2024, “Also, I was never on Epstein’s Plane or at his “stupid” Island.”

    Epstein’s Lolita Express flight logs have been openly available at the latest since 2016, featuring Trump (among others). Everybody knows this, except Trump apparently. Is he lying or is he just superconveniently braindead and therefore perfect for the President of USA?

    Perhaps a less known fact is that during campaigning in 2024, Trump’s own jet broke down, so he used Epstein’s old jet which was there for the taking since Epstein was dead. So, rather ironically, Trump may have twittered “I was never on Epstein’s Plane” while on Epstein’s plane at the same time!

    Another fun statement by Trump on Epstein, at a cabinet meeting with press presence in the White House, “He’s been dead for a long time. He was never a big factor in terms of life.”

  36. keiths,

    What does Joe Biden have to do with this? The thread topic is Trump’s dishonesty.

    My point is about supporting claims. Both Biden and Clinton can be shown to have lied with supported claims. So far Trump cannot. It is certainly possible that there is evidence out there he has lied but you have not produced it yet.

    You created a post with an assertion that remains unsupported and you continue to double down with hearsay.

  37. colewd:

    You created a post with an assertion that remains unsupported and you continue to double down with hearsay.

    Psychology Today:

    Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxiety.

    For example, a loved one may insist that she doesn’t have a problem with alcohol, despite the fact that it interferes with work and family life. Or a loyal employee may refuse to see signs that his boss is stealing from the company.

    Or a cult member may deny irrefutable evidence that their cult leader is a liar.

  38. keiths,

    Or a cult member may deny irrefutable evidence that their cult leader is a liar.

    Just find evidence equivalent to the Biden or Clinton lies and I will grant that you have supported your claim. If it is indeed irrefutable then this should not be hard.

  39. colewd:

    …you continue to double down with hearsay.

    Funny how hearsay was perfectly fine when you wrote

    My friend has a family attorney connection that deposed Trump prior to his running in 2016. His comment was ” He is the most straight forward CEO I have ever deposed.”

    …and said

    This is way stronger to me than bias news sources.

    Hearsay for me but not for thee.

    In any case, we aren’t relying on hearsay. I quoted Trump’s actual Truth Social post, which I confirmed for myself at Truth Social, and the actual US Attorney’s email, which I viewed at the DOJ’s website.

    Look for yourself:

    Trump’s Truth Social post

    The US Attorney’s email

    He lied, Bill.

  40. colewd:
    keiths,

    Just find evidence equivalent to the Biden or Clinton lies and I will grant that you have supported your claim.If it is indeed irrefutable then this should not be hard.

    ROFL

    Meanwhile there are accounts, in the recently-released Epstein files, where putative girl victims allege that Trump raped them, together with Epstein.

    No wonder Trump has so vehemently denied and downplayed his relationship to Epstein, his visits to his island and use of Epstein’s plane, claimed it was a democrat hoax, while also strongly opposing the release of the files.

    Gee, no wonder president date-my-daughter-if-she-wasnt-my-daughter-and-self-admitted-pussygrabber has been so opposed to the whole thing.

    No lies, says Bill. Spin, exaggeration. No lies. Not in a cult, is Bill. Eminently reasonable and doesn’t have blinders on.

    LMAO

  41. Again, the media seem to be pulling a Bill here. It’s well established that Trump and Epstein were best friends for a couple of decades. It’s well established that Epstein was running his pedophile ring during that time. It’s well established that Trump and Epstein were in close communication and shared experiences. It’s well established that Trump’s attitude toward women resembled Epstein’s quite closely. Trump has been accused of improper advances by over a dozen women, and actually convicted in one case. The Access Hollywood tapes are pretty self-explanatory.

    So could Trump have known what was going on? Gee, we have no proof yet. The victims said he both knew and participated, but that’s hearsay. What has been released so far would make it flat impossible that Trump did NOT know what was happening, and almost impossible that he didn’t participate. But as per Bill, we don’t know for sure, and adding 2 and 2 apparently falls beyond the comprehension of the media as well as Bill. Even a photo, no matter how self-evident, could have been doctored.

    Bill has an airtight argument: nothing can count as evidence. Nothing. Not photos, not sworn testimony, not Truth Social posts, not Trump’s words, nothing.

  42. I’m not American. It doesn’t really matter because no matter what citizenship these days can get you in trouble depending on where you are located or even where your server is located…

    True or Not?

  43. Flint:
    Again, the media seem to be pulling a Bill here. It’s well established that Trump and Epstein were best friends for a couple of decades. It’s well established that Epstein was running his pedophile ring during that time. It’s well established that Trump and Epstein were in close communication and shared experiences. It’s well established that Trump’s attitude toward women resembled Epstein’s quite closely. Trump has been accused of improper advances by over a dozen women, and actually convicted in one case. The Access Hollywood tapes are pretty self-explanatory.

    So could Trump have known what was going on? Gee, we have no proof yet. The victims said he both knew and participated, but that’s hearsay. What has been released so far would make it flat impossible that Trump did NOT know what was happening, and almost impossible that he didn’t participate. But as per Bill, we don’t know for sure, and adding 2 and 2 apparently falls beyond the comprehension of the media as well as Bill. Even a photo, no matter how self-evident, could have been doctored.

    Bill has an airtight argument: nothing can count as evidence. Nothing. Not photos, not sworn testimony, not Truth Social posts, not Trump’s words, nothing.

    Can I ask how old you are?

  44. colewd: I agree you have supported your claim regarding Trump lying about flying on Epstein plane. Thanks.

    How did you arrive at this? What was the evidence that convinced you that Trump lied on this point and it was intentional such that it passed your thick skull? Because, you see, there are thousands of far more direct and obvious lies by Trump that you are still obtuse on.

  45. colewd:
    Allan Miller,

    This is not about Trumps defence it’s about making claims you can back up with facts.

    Many claims have been backed up, here, and elsewhere, eg the WaPo database. Pick any claim, there or here, to support your counter-claim that all evidence of Trump lying is, in fact, propaganda.

    He rather plays into the propagandists’ hands, does he not, by his profligate utterance of untruths – a tendency with which you have agreed?

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