Just thought I’d start a thread about my reappearance to save derailing this one!
Thanks to all who have been keeping the place busy in my absence! Things are still sticky for me, but I can smell a thaw!
147 thoughts on “Hi everyone!”
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That’s interesting. I didn’t get the same impression from reading “Rare Earth”, but reading your post and thinking about it from your perspective, I can see how you got there.
For the record, I wasn’t a big fan of the book either. I thought it was a bit hand-wavy and stretching the argument to support their premise. Funny thing is, I agree with the premise: that bacterial-scale life may be relatively common in the universe, but advanced multi-cellular life is probably rare. I didn’t think they chose the best arguments for it, though.
But onetime, there is one thing about the book that may have put you off that I do agree with. Life is indeed a matter of contingency, and many events have to fall into place just so in order for it to develop into any specific form. But that doesn’t imply that this form was brought about by any intent. There are a nearly infinite number of other forms life could take (or lifelessness, for that matter), and each of the alternatives is just as finely constrained by circumstance as this one. But there are also billions of possible circumstances, so philosophically, it’s far less important as to what happened than just that something happened. But there’s a whole lot of something going on. Science is more concerned with the what, but there’s no need to dress that up in any form of intentionality.
Elizabeth,
That is the totality of your answer?
No explanation for why you never mentioned that you were suddenly not posting here.
Not answer as to how long you stopped posting.
No answer as to what other site you were the administrator of, which kept you so busy you couldn’t respond here.
And finally, so you are saying, yes indeed you do like the quality of the conversations here, and the way it represents the atheist viewpoint?
Wow.
Maybe the reason Barry banned you because he saw you are clearly someone who has no interest in answers questions sincerely?
Lizzie.
Welcome back on behalf of YEC/ID and good guys everywhere.
If you haven’t converted to creationism yet then we have another chance.
Its disappointing to hear of your family loss due to death. Death is ugly but we do recover.
As they say it will become the new normal living with the loss.
Lord bless)if i may say so).
Robert Byers,
We’re going to disagree on a lot, but you do strike me a nice guy.
phoodoo,
Phoodoo, given your perpetual dodge on your views of the age of the universe | earth | life, I don’t see how you can ask that and not be a hypocrite? Go and look into any nearby reflective surface. You motive mongered, and were wrong. You should be used to that by now.
Richardthughes,
So you are affirming that Lizzie is dodging the question right?
What do you think her motives are for “dodging” a question that is so clearly related to the topic? Do you think her dismissively dodging relevant questions had anything to do with her banning from UD?
Perhaps from Barry’s point of view it was seen as her not willing to discuss in good faith? Other (scientific) sites also ban people from making claims and then refusing to make an honest effort to support their claim.
First, we can all see you continue to dodge questions whilst falsely accusing others of the same. There’s a word for that.
I say “falsely” because she clearly states:
“Well, it certainly wasn’t because of the way it was run! If it had been, I’d have been back here to fix it! I’m just really grateful to Neil, Patrick and Alan for all they’ve done.”
– which was your original contention, that you raised many times without good evidence. Now we know you were wrong, it is perhaps better to you to move on rather than persist was something that has been show unequivocally to be false?
Now about those questions you continue to dodge. Why do you dodge them phoodoo? You seem quite strident when criticizing the views of others. Why are you cowardly with your own?
I was going to point out the obvious, that the blowhards at UD have gone a whole decade without once supporting any of their asinine ID claims. Then I remembered UD isn’t a scientific site.
Adapa,
It is a site which DAILY posts links to many scientific journals and let’s people make their own conclusions based on the data-so what martian planet are you on!?
Just more typical hand-waving?
The Discovery Institute’s Evolution Spews and Snooze isn’t a scientific journal. Neither are their propaganda fake publication “Bio-Complexity” and Cornhole Hunter’s “Darwin’s God” blog.
Richardthughes,
Richard,
Thanks once again for reiterating that you feel her dodging of the question is similar to me “dodging” your pertinent and overwhelmingly thought provoking question about the age of the Earth.
I see that you even mentioned where Lizzie stated reasons why she DIDN’T leave this site. Do you have any thoughts on why she refused to state why she DID suddenly stop posting here-even while she was continually posting elsewhere?
Do you also have any thoughts about which site she WAS the admin on? Or why that site was more appealing for her to be the admin on then here.
Or why she suddenly stopped being the admin there?
I think any valuable clues you can give about solving this mystery would surely be welcome, since Lizzie herself certainly is not going to help clear up the confusion.
Good stuff Richard. The mystery continues….
phoodoo,
Now *that’s* sciencing!
They don’t even understand the current state of the ID argument.
Barry doesn’t know if CSI=Fits=FIASCO.
KF is adamant fishing reels don’t spontaneously assemble.
*Sciencing!*
I actually didn’t say that at all. She has answered that life got busy / she had a bereavement etc and you have provided no answer at all. The butthurt you have now is not her fault, it is yours for motive mongering. Perhaps you can reflect on that at some point.
I don’t want to publicly speculate on her motivations. That is for people like you. I am very happy she is back and you are very wrong, though.
You are the only one with an (unhealthy) fixation, you floated “she is so ashamed she wont come back”, then she did, and now you have butthurt. Fondle that nice looking watch – it may help.
Of course it is wrong for you to persist questioning without answering your own pending questions. 😉
Richardthughes,
Hmm…Richard suggests she already answered why she left here and kept posting elsewhere….
Richard then posits that he won’t speculate as to why (even though she already answered, because she didn’t actually answer).
The mystery continues…. (maybe she came back because she missed being on a site where posters love the word butthurt so much? Another possibility…)
phoodoo,
She answered, I’m not speculating, You were wrong and still haven’t answered your questions.
Richardthughes,
Richard,
Thanks for graciously deciding not to speculate without having enough facts to go on.
So do you think we need a separate thread to figure out the reasons why Lizzie kept posting elsewhere, and even decided to be the admin of another site, while she was ignoring her own site?
Or are you of the opinion that we can try to unravel it here?
(btw, I think the butthurt theory is just one of the possibilities, I am not really saying it the only reason she came back).
She can speak for herself if she chooses (and she did). Now how about *your* questions?
phoodoo, I don’t know you very well, not having been around for a while, but I do find it rather astonishing that you feel that I owe you some sort of “explanation” for not posting here.
I could explain, but I honestly don’t see why, in a public place, I should. If you want to email you I could tell you in private, but again, I don’t see why I should.
But I’ll have a go anyway, because, well, it’s the kind of thing I do.
I started TSZ because I thought there was a place for a site where people could discuss things with a set of rules that I’ve been mulling over for some time, after experience at other boards. I didn’t do much with it for a while, until the pace became very fast at Uncommon Descent, and I got it going as a place where people could continue conversations that had become straddled over many threads at UD, each of which dropped off the page very quickly, meaning it was hard to keep track. Then there was a spate of bannings at UD, and it also became a place where people could continue conversations, either with UD regulars here, or by loud-hailer to UD, that they could not continue at UD.
It’s good to see a few UD regulars do post here – we’ve had more in the past, so I’m glad to see you’ve stuck it out!
Anyway, TSZ proved very successful, with a fairly sizeable membership, which is great, and I found I simply didn’t have time to engage anymore at the level at which I’d started. At the same time I became admin at Talk Rational, a site I’d been a founder member of, and had been admin of in the past, plus I took on an unexpectedly enormous teaching load in addition to my research. I was really fortunate that Neil, Alan and Patrick were able to take over, as I didn’t want simply to abandon a site that was, and is, fulfilling a useful role for a lot of people. I’ve occasionally popped in, and solved the odd technical crisis, and, of course, paid for the hosting, I knew that Alan, Neil and Patrick understood the principles of the site, so I had no worries about it. I thought it might simply wither on the vine – but hey, look – grapes!
A more organised person would, of course, have looked in regularly, but I am, sadly, not an organised person, even though I am an enthusiastic and busy person, and if something doesn’t attract/demand my attention NOW, it gets put off till some mythical future time when I can get a round tuit. Tuits, however, it turns out, don’t grow on trees, not round ones anyway.
The name of this tendency is ADHD by the way, and happens to be my field of research, and one I know from both sides of the skin.
So you have given me the opportunity to apologise to all for my lack of engagement here. I don’t promise I won’t disappear again – right now, I’m here because, well, I’m here, and having a conversation, and I enjoy conversations.
No mystery, phoodoo: just the story of a woman who starts more projects than she has time or energy to complete or see through, and a project that took on a life of its own, and which she was happy to leave in the capable hands of her friends, seeing as it was serving a useful purpose!
I hope you’re inspired by Lizzie’s comprehensive eloquence and honesty to give similar answers to your outstanding questions, Phoodoo.
Elizabeth,
Lizzie,
I appreciate your honesty.
But I also think its a little strange for you to then say, well, why should I discuss these things in public? I would think the answer is because you started a site to discuss these things in public! Besides which, you make it a habit to be critical of UD, so it seems a pretty obvious topic to discuss how this site is better or worse-and why you would prefer talk rational to here.
I don’t think it has anything to do with exposing you personally as much as it has to do with the topic of what is a reasonable discussion of the topics here.
My personal opinion is that this site is not really a great example of a curious, sophisticated, and polite group of individuals who share an interest in seeking truth. I think it is much more of a group of bitter, angry individuals ( not all) who seem much more interested in proving how right they think they are, rather than being open about admitting anything which might be contrary to their bias.
So in that respect, I come here to demonstrate just how much that is so. I put up with the richardhuges, and the keiths, and Dna jocks, because I think its worthwhile to show others that this is really the science behind all the materialist propaganda in the media. Give them sunlight and let others decide. I do think there are places that do a more balanced job, I am certainly not all in agreement with UD’s way either.
But I haven’t really found an atheist leaning site that does a much better job. Pandas thumb, and evc, they are pretty much just as blatantly one sided, and toxic as many other places, and most of the hardcore opinionated atheist preachers like Coyne, Dawkins, PZ, Krauss, Shermer, or Guerilla skeptics, or sgu…and the like, they would much prefer to censor out all opinions and simply preach to a closed choir.
So I do find it surprising (intially, not now) and enlightening that all these people who claim to be so interested in science don’t take a very scientific approach to reasonable discussion. Its amazing that in the vast land of the internet, real discussions about atheism, evolution, and science of the immaterial are almost non-existent. And if I am being honest and I think fair, its much more the materialist atheist who are to blame for blocking these discussions.
Good day.
You’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Lizzie’s mission to create a site that facilitates open discussion while attempting to limit rancour has not been completely successful. But it has been more successful than any other site I have spent time reading or posting.
Well, keeping the site and it’s members true to the mission is a good aim. How successful you’ve been so far, I’m not sure. Keep up the good work.
It’s a two-way street!
I’d be grateful for examples. There may be lessons we can learn.
Have you looked at the “Signal to Noise” thread at UD, especially Barry Arrington’s contributions? I’m pleased you have some reservations about how that site is run.
phoodoo,
If you’re looking to internet discussion sites to fulfil any purpose other than internet discussion, you’re probably going to be disappointed. Sure, people can be posturers in such discussions. Though I don’t really see how you can come to the conclusion that TSZ is worse than UD in that respect – but if that’s how you see it, that’s how you see it. To me, some of the response you personally get is down to your own pugilistic style. We create our own realities to some extent.
If people are representing the atheist side badly here, tant pis! It’s a small self-selecting group of people who like to argue, not Atheism Central. If you want a better, less fragmentary and contentious and more metaphysically-detached overview of evolutionary theory, might I suggest a university course or textbook?
She did not start this site to discuss why or why not certain people participate.
Duh.
But not my own personal life events and issues, phoodoo.
Think!
Elizabeth,
I hardly think you answering why you preferred to post on thinkrational as opposed to here (but now prefer here) is an intrusion into your personal life events.
Obsesses much, Phoodoo? The only reason you’re still at it is because you made those ludicrous, unsupported claims multiple times about Lizzie being so disgusted with this site she abandoned it. That is clearly not the case, and you were wrong (as usual).
No about *your* outstanding answers?
Alan Fox,
I have looked at Barry’s site plenty. He doesn’t allow the kind of nonsense that goes on here. And thank goodness for that, it is a much better site because of that-even if it isn’t perfect.
This site is much more comparable to the yahoo comments section.
Including, but not limited to:
Science
>Understanding and critiquing of the current state of ID, not preCSI bit-counting.
Not being censored
> Posting rights removed
>Silent banning
>Having your work scrawled over in bold
Fair right of reply
>No closed comments
etc etc etc.
Odd how people come to a place then complain about how horrible that place is then don’t leave and keep coming back.
Sorry, no death by cop for you, Phoodoo. Your Butthurt is waaaaaay too delicious!
Lizzie, I’m self-banned here, but I did want to stop by for a moment to say that I’m someone who is not on either “team” and who has tried out both sites (i.e., SZ and UD). IMHO, they’re both riddled with chest-thumping and making fun of “opposing” views. In fact, the the main motive for the majority of posts on both sites is to ridicule positions with which the poster disagrees. A quick look at the last twenty or thirty posts on each site easily confirms this.
That being said, it’s my view that SZ is a good distance less obno than UD. This place at least doesn’t ban people for their views, and while there’s considerable condescension on both sites, the moderators at UD are much more obnoxious about it. As well, the general level of debate there is worse, largely because of the tendency of so many posters there to simply quote “scripture” as if that were dispositive of anything. So while this place deserves a “gentlewoman’s C” the other one gets a D-. (And I say this as someone who was criticized right here at SZ for having a small dick.)
Anyhow, speaking as an “impartial observer” who is not comfortable at either place because of the adolescent homerism and pervasive talk-radio/sneering tone at both, I will say that while some of phoodoo’s complaints seem to me valid, he’s wrong about the relative merits of the two sites. Yours is a bit better.
Adieu.
W
Walto! What about the hugs? *lip trembles*
This seems an opportune moment for me to note that I am vastly superior to everyone here, at UD, and beyond.
Glen Davidson
Well, you may think so phoodoo, but as they are my personal life events, not yours, I retain the right to differ.
And in any case I explained as much as I am going to.
Glen:
🙂
Where are the sites for superior folks like walto and phoodoo? Won’t someone think of die Übermenschen?
It seems a quid a month is too much, ID will have to remain suppressed due to lack of discussion forums.
https://www.1and1.co.uk/wordpress-blogs
£1/mo.
I hope Phoodoo, WJM and Walto set up blogs. I’d read them.
For a moment, I thought you were talking about posts by walto at the analytic yahoo group.
See?
Quick–circle the wagons everyone!!
Not sure what your point is. Nobody is forcing anybody to go to any site and read anything. Quite the opposite. I, like Richard, would love to see phoodoo start a blog. That way what phoodoo has to say can be said in full, unfettered by censoring darwinists circling the wagon.
Lately I’ve been reflecting on the following: The Internet is dominated by people who don’t have any better to do than waste time on the Internet.
If someone is busy, doing something important, working two or more jobs, raising kids while working, or just having an exciting, fantastic life — the chances are slim-to-none that he or she will put much effort into sustained Internet conversations. There’s just too much life to live, and not enough time in which to do it, to spend much time in having the same arguments over and over.
Still, I enjoy being part of this community, and it’s to Lizzie’s credit that she started something positive.
My point is as I said. Take a look at the posts here and the quite high percentage of them that are put up largely to ridicule those you disagree with. Do you think that’s false? Look at the number of responses to posts that are basically insults. (If you can’t think of any, take the responses to mine above.) My remarks seem pretty obviously true. And, as I could have predicted, me saying that this site is preferable to UD was insufficient. It has to be awesome v. terrible.
That’s how politics is played.
Let me present a few comments made on the Active Information thread at UD by Barry:
And my favourite Barry quote from a previous thread:
Now lets look at comments from Joe:
There are a lot more from Joe, but I think you get the point.
Now let’s look at KairosFocus:
I will not quote any more of KF’s paranoid rant because it is libelous and I don’t wish to give him any more air time than he already gets.
Phoodoo, I have followed both TSZ and UD for a couple years now. I have also commented on occasion to both. Commenting at UD is difficult because anyone who disagrees with Barry or KF, and provides copious evidence to support his/her views, is promptly labelled a troll and banned. If you think that the behaviour at TSZ is worse than at UD, we are obviously not looking at the same sites. But the most telling point about UD is that Barry allows one of the UD authors to falsely accuse another commenter of illegal activity, repeatedly, and doesn’t do anything about it.
I think, Walto, the broadsides are an unfortunate outcome of having no real direct dialogue. Most of us are banned there. Very few of them will come here. TSZ remains open *for* dialogue, but you need both parties to want that.
I would be overjoyed if someone from UD posted directly on my “What is a body plan” thread, directly or indirectly, to answer my questions.
walto, you may not have noticed but at UD Zachriel will patiently answer question after question and in return gets nothing but abuse.
Yet where are the ID supporters that answer questions of interest? They simply don’t exist.
Yet any ID supporter can come here and ask questions and have them answered. They ask them at UD, they ask them here. They get detailed, technical answers. People on this site have calculated more FSCO/CSI then they *ever* have at UD.
Yet questions asked at UD about ID get abuse in return, and comments edited or censored by admins routinely.
That you consider the two sites nearly equal in the quality of conversation and behavior says more about your judgement then this site.
A. I HAVE noticed the crap that goes on at UD. That’s why I said it was worse there. It’s awful.
B. FWIW, I didn’t say and don’t think that C and D- are “nearly equal in quality” It’s just not awesome v. terrible.
Anyhow, always a pleasure.
Well, ok, fair point.
I look forward to seeing more comments from you. And almost everyone who posts here! Which is rare.
Exactly why they get ridiculed. They’re supposedly out to do science, wishing that people would engage this “science,” and yet they’ll never discuss meaningful questions like why life is derivative in the manner that one would expect of evolution and not at all as has ever been seen in human invention (save for artificial selection, because it has had the same heredity limits that natural selection has).
There is nothing to do but ridicule ID and its proponents when they act so contrary to their stated aims and transparent pretense to wish to engage the evidence. Such ridicule is earned, and apparently preferred by them to actually considering what the evidence shows.
Fortunately, it’s a bit fun, even though less desirable than actual engagement.
Glen Davidson
They have already banned my main UD account and one alias. I have tried setting up another one, but couldn’t smuggle any comment past
moderationcensorship. What’s particularly infuriating is that I hadn’t done anything worse than calling KF’s persecution fantasies “persecution fantasies” and asking him to apologise (or the admins to apologise for him).On the up side, I don’t have to waste my time posting on UD.
Indeed, Walto. I hope you’ll re-consider your self-imposed exile from TSZ, but it’s your call.