Dembski – Disillusion with fundamentalism

A very interesting blog post by William Dembski:

The old Dembski returns — the one was an old earth creationist before his run-in with Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

I don’t find this surprising.  I never really believed his capitulation to the fundamentalists.  It always looked like saving his job rather than changing his beliefs.

Still, I found the post quite interesting.  And maybe it will give some folk something better to do than flinging poo at Dawkins’ software.

72 thoughts on “Dembski – Disillusion with fundamentalism

  1. So I guess he’s persecuting the fundamentalists now. As much as he’s a “victim” of same, anyway. Whiny and self-righteous as always, he’s the poster boy for ID incompetence and self-martyrdom.

    Then there’s this tripe:

    The seven or so minutes devoted to the Nazis and their assimilation of Darwinian theory and its basis in the holocaust was misplaced. Not that there isn’t a connection, but bringing up the Nazis invariably causes the temperature to rise and the train of an argument to be lost. Far better would have been to use those seven minutes to recount the record of accomplishment of intelligent design.

    Ha ha, I wonder why they didn’t. Oh no I don’t, ID has no accomplishments, beyond whining and demonization of legitimate science.

    So I guess self-knowledge didn’t really come with Dembski’s disillusionment with fundamentalism. He’s reacting against his childhood and early education, and blaming “Darwinism” for it, using the free association that “ID science” typically relies upon. He can’t back up his resentments and projections, he can only whine and complain.

    Glen Davidson

  2. The Missing Link: Disillusion with Fundamentalism.

    My response, when I read the interview four years ago, was that Dembski had contributed to what he was complaining about. There are a number of evangelical leaders complaining similarly now about the willingness of evangelicals to vote for Trump, when they could not have helped but seen that they were contributing to the conflation of Republican political views with the their Christian worldview.

  3. GlenDavidson:
    Then there’s this tripe:

    “Far better would have been to use those seven minutes to recount the record of accomplishment of intelligent design.”

    Seven minutes? Those IDiots would have a hard time filling seven seconds with their scientific accomplishments.

  4. I was surprised to see how little Dembski knows about the conservative swing of the Southern Baptist Convention. “Moral Majority” types began taking over in the Seventies. (I suspect that they succeeded because they were organized, and their opponents were not.) My college roommate’s father was a pastor, and was quite upset by what he was seeing. Many moderate congregations left the SBC in the Eighties.

    Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was quite liberal in the Seventies. I’d have gone to school there, had I not, scraping away the cruft from my beliefs, with complete faith that I would arrive at a bright and shining kernel of Absolute Truth, ended up with nothing. (But a thoroughgoing negation ultimately negates itself. The Tom abides.)

    As for the present “conservatives,” there’s only so far you can lurch to the right before you go over the edge and into madness. Batshit crazy is not conservative.

  5. Just added The End of Christianity to my overlong reading list. Dammit.

    Knowing better than most people do that Dembski was an intellectual psychopath in the cause of ID, for the simple reason that I make better sense of the math (and nonsense of the associated rhetoric) than most people do, I wonder if he was the same in his “speculative theology.” Perhaps the people who were best equipped to make sense of such stuff caught on to him. There’s every reason to doubt that he’s giving a straight account of what happened.

  6. Tom English: I wonder if he was the same in his “speculative theology.”

    Dembski: “My solution is to argue that the Fall had retroactive effects in history (much as the salvation of Christ on the Cross acts not only forward in time to save people now, but also backward in time to save the Old Testament saints).”

    I’ll admit that I was amused by that extreme of speculative theology. I do not plan to add Dembski’s book to my reading list.

  7. Tom:

    I wonder if he was the same in his “speculative theology.”

    Well, his “speculative theology” certainly does violence to evidence and reason, but it doesn’t stand out from the rest of evangelical Christianity in that regard.

  8. I’ve looked at ten or so reviews, trying to get myself out of reading the book. I think I’ve succeeded in that. Life’s too short to waste on a post mortem of Dembski.

    The Nettles review (linked to by Dembski) made me think repeatedly of Planet of the Apes. Honestly, the image came to mind unbidden. I was not looking for a slur.

    Dembski got a glowing review from a layperson at BioLogos.

  9. I have heard that young people are flooding out of the fundamentalist churches. They mostly do however declare themselves to be “spiritual”. But they do not want to stay in the fundamentalist churches. Apparently the Southern Baptist Church has made the grim projection that the number of its congregants is in the process of falling by half.

    Well then, I thought, this must be because of the church’s restrictive social teachings. I was astonished to hear, though, that the main reason is unhappiness with the church’s teachings on science.

    I am fairly used to having my field, evolutionary biology, be fairly peripheral to the great struggles in our society. This argues that the things we argue about here may really be having an important effect.

  10. Joe Felsenstein: Well then, I thought, this must be because of the church’s restrictive social teachings. I was astonished to hear, though, that the main reason is unhappiness with the church’s teachings on science.

    Yes, that seems likely.

    I’ll admit that I’m guessing here. But I really think that it is all about global warming. The youth can surely see that it is happening. They can surely see that it will pose a serious problem that they will have to deal with in their lifefimes. Yet they see far too little being done about it.

    The southern Baptists are opposed to the very idea that there is anthropic global warming.

    I’m guessing that’s a real contradiction that drives youth from the church.

  11. Looked at from the perspective of centuries, I’d say science is the enemy of faith.

    It is not faith vs reason. That doesn’t seem to go anywhere.

    But faith vs iPhones, and faith vs rising oceans seems to be compelling.

    The rainbow seems to be broken.

  12. The End of Christianity is a excellent read.

    I have a similar understanding of the fall and it’s effects.

    I’m a fundamentalist but I share Dembski’s disdain for folks who assume that any new understanding must be heresy.

    peace

  13. I have heard that young people are flooding out of the fundamentalist churches.

    I expect the trend to continue in affluent societies.

    I was astonished to hear, though, that the main reason is unhappiness with the church’s teachings on science.

    Many congregations are short of providing credible reasons for believing coupled with many demands on one’s life. Secular world appears more appealing to most. The trend is understandable.

    I actually went back to church after hanging out in the secular circles, but for most people I expect the direction will be toward a secular life in the 21st century while affluence and relative peace lasts.

  14. Joe Felsenstein: I have heard that young people are flooding out of the fundamentalist churches. They mostly do however declare themselves to be “spiritual”. But they do not want to stay in the fundamentalist churches. Apparently the Southern Baptist Church has made the grim projection that the number of its congregants is in the process of falling by half.

    I would say that what is happening is a general retreat from large hierarchical organizations to those more reflecting the original pattern seen in the NT.

    In this sense the trend is toward more fundamentalism rather than less.

    peace

  15. Joe Felsenstein: When questioned, they specifically say that their major issue is the attitude toward science of the denominations they are leaving.

    1) Who is they? That certainly has not been the issue with the many folks I know personally
    2) Fundamentalism is not antiscience.
    3) it’s the hierarchical nature of these organizations that make them resistant to views that challenge the understanding of those in charge not their shared commitment to the fundamentals

    peace

  16. fifthmonarchyman: 1) Who is they? That certainly has not been the issue with the many folks I know personally
    2) Fundamentalism is not antiscience.
    3) it’s the hierarchical nature of these organizations that make them resistant to views that challenge the understanding of those in charge not their shared commitment to the fundamentals
    peace

    Of course it’s people. It’s just a coincidence that they pressure university professors to swear allegiance to stupid mythology.

  17. petrushka: It’s just a coincidence that they pressure university professors to swear allegiance to stupid mythology.

    I would say that the lack of academic freedom is a major problem on both sides of the religion isle.

    And I would say that the problem is with the hierarchical nature of institutions in general. It’s always been about the power of folks who mistakenly think they have authority when they do not.

    On the bright side people place less trust in institutions of all stripes every day and more trust in the one fellow who really deserves it .

    peace

  18. fifthmonarchyman: I would say that the lack of academic freedom is a major problem on both sides of the ID isle.

    I would say this is disingenuous. Secular schools may control what is taught, but they do not require loyalty oaths. If you teach biology, you are required to teach biology, but no one follows you into church.

    You might be denied tenure if you publish nothing but bullshit.

  19. petrushka: If you teach biology, you are required to teach biology,

    Who has the authority to decide what “biology” is and whether a particular professor is teaching it?

    peace

  20. When I teach evolutionary biology, I do not require or reward declarations of belief in evolution. I tell them that questions on the exam will be like this: “Here is a situation A. How would an evolutionary biologist explain this?” They have to know what the evolutionary biologist would argue. They can’t get off the hook by saying that personally they think it is all bullshit. That may well be true but it is not responsive to the question — they still have to tell me what an evolutionary biologist would argue. They are not required to declare belief in it.

    By contrast, William Dembski notoriously required students in one of his courses to post on blogs that debated intelligent design, and in doing so to take his side. He in turn was required by his school (when he was in Waco) to take particular sides in a theological controversy.

  21. petrushka: You might be denied tenure if you publish nothing but bullshit.

    Who has the authority to decide the merits of what you publish?

    Is it the same people who are uniquely qualified to determine what “biology” is?

    peace

  22. Joe Felsenstein: I tell them that questions on the exam will be like this: “Here is a situation A. How would an evolutionary biologist explain this?”

    who has the authority to say who qualifies as a genuine evolutionary biologist?

    peace

  23. Joe Felsenstein: William Dembski notoriously required students in one of his courses to post on blogs that debated intelligent design, and in doing so to take his side.

    Don’t you do the same thing when you decree how a “genuine” evolutionary biologist would explain things?

    peace

  24. Joe Felsenstein: He in turn was required by his school (when he was in Waco) to take particular sides in a theological controversy.

    No he was simply informed of what the institution decreed that a “genuine” Christian scholar believed and told that the institution only employed genuine Christian scholars.

    peace

  25. Joe Felsenstein: It partly supports what I said: opposition to science is actually reason #3, not #1 in that study.

    What I said were reasons 1 and 2.
    3 is just one obvious result of those fatal failings

    😉

  26. fifthmonarchyman: Don’t you do the same thing when you decree how a “genuine” evolutionary biologist would explain things?

    peace

    It is you who do not understand. If I ask you how a Catholic would explain evolution, I am not requiring you to declare belief in Catholicism, or even in evolution.

    Similarly if I ask how the ancient Greeks explained thunder, I am not requiring you to declare that you believe in the ancient Greek gods. Or even in thunder.

    Zay gezint

  27. Joe Felsenstein: f I ask you how a Catholic would explain evolution, I am not requiring you to declare belief in Catholicism, or even in evolution.

    If you declared that Catholics believed in purgatory and then asked your young skulls full of mush what Catholics beleive you would be abusing your authority

    Just as you do when you declare that your understanding of evolution is the only authentic belief for an evolutionary biologist and then ask your students what evolutionary biologists beleive

    peace

  28. Listen, fifthmonarchyman. If you do not stop teaching belief in the Fifth Monarchy, and start teaching belief in the Sixth Monarchy, I will fire your ass. You will have to go back to your office now and clean out your desk. Your family will wonder where their next meal is coming from. Do not pass Go and do not collect $200. You will be out the door!

    OK now. That wasn’t a requirement that you believe in Monarchy 6.0, was it? Didn’t feel like pressure, did it?

    In fact, it was less pressure than Dembski was under, as I didn’t require that you be a true Sixth Monarchy Man, just that you teach your students that they should be.

  29. Joe Felsenstein: OK now. That wasn’t a requirement that you believe in Monarchy 6.0, was it? Didn’t feel like pressure, did it?

    It’s more like this

    Christian Scholars have always believed in the Monarchy 6.0 this institution only employs Christian Scholars.

    Now tell me where do you stand on Monarchy 6.0?

    Now that is pressure but it’s the same pressure all institutions employ

    peace

  30. fifthmonarchyman: If you declared that Catholics believed in purgatory and then asked your young skulls full of mush what Catholics beleive you would be abusing your authority

    Not at all. Teachers of comparative religion at secular institutions do that all the time, and in my view they are fully justified in asking the students to show that they understand the differences in belief in different religions.

  31. Joe Felsenstein: in my view they are fully justified in asking the students to show that they understand the differences in belief in different religions.

    Of course you would say that wouldn’t you because you do the same thing.

    There is nothing wrong with asking what the Pope professes or what the majority of professing Catholics say they beleive or even what the bible says but it is an abuse of authority to declare that X is the genuine belief of a Catholic or of a Evolutionary Biologist

    peace

  32. Not…God?

    God reveals it to the promotion and tenure committee. He’s a revelatory whirlwind.

  33. keiths: God reveals it to the promotion and tenure committee.He’s a revelatory whirlwind.

    I guess, because if he didn’t reveal the truth to them they wouldn’t know whom to tenure and whom to promote.

    QED

    Glen Davidson

  34. Scientism, Materialism, and Naturalism would do well to explain the spiritual void that they attempt to fill and explain how they can possibly succeed.

  35. petrushka: It’s just a coincidence that they pressure university professors to swear allegiance to stupid mythology.

    Indeed. The hegemony of the Cult of Darwin must be overthrown! Skeptics unite!

  36. Joe:

    I have heard that young people are flooding out of the fundamentalist churches. They mostly do however declare themselves to be “spiritual”. But they do not want to stay in the fundamentalist churches. Apparently the Southern Baptist Church has made the grim projection that the number of its congregants is in the process of falling by half.

    fifth:

    I would say that what is happening is a general retreat from large hierarchical organizations to those more reflecting the original pattern seen in the NT.

    No, because people aren’t merely leaving their churches. They’re leaving Christianity.

  37. keiths: people aren’t merely leaving their churches. They’re leaving Christianity.

    Others are becoming Christians. It’s true. Truth. It matters.

  38. Mung:
    Lying liars do not care about facts. Are you a lying liar?

    Seems to me you were the one who was caught lying and quote-mining just a few months ago Mung. Keep those tiny turds flying! 😀

  39. keiths: No, because people aren’t merely leaving their churches. They’re leaving Christianity.

    Who is that exactly?

    quote:

    The drop in the Christian share of the population has been driven mainly by declines among mainline Protestants and Catholics

    and

    By contrast, the size of the historically black Protestant tradition – which includes the National Baptist Convention, the Church of God in Christ, the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Progressive Baptist Convention and others – has remained relatively stable in recent years, at nearly 16 million adults. And evangelical Protestants, while declining slightly as a percentage of the U.S. public, probably have grown in absolute numbers as the overall U.S. population has continued to expand.

    end quote:

    from here

    http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

    also check it out
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/2

    peace

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