168 thoughts on “Untruth Social”

1. Allan Miller,

   The burden of proof has been satisfied on the “Trump lies” side. Look at WaPo, channel 4, cases made here. You have not explained why the entirety of those documented falsehoods – nor even one – is “left-leaning propaganda”. This simply has the status of blinkers, not an argument. It is definitionally true that no-one can persuade you with evidence, because evidence is de facto ‘left-leaning propaganda’.

   Now are you down grading your claim from lies to falsehoods? Maybe we can agree he has made some claims that have turned out to be false. I am sure you can most likely demonstrate this.

   Do you have a few of his claims you can demonstrate to be false? Do any of these claims have advisarial effect on the American or global population?

   Yes I remember the discussion burden tennis 🙂

2. colewd: Now are you down grading your claim from lies to falsehoods? Maybe we can agree he has made some claims that have turned out to be false. I am sure you can most likely demonstrate this.

   See, Allan, now you have somewhat less of a burden of proof. What a relief!

3. keiths,

   Funny how the burden of proof applies to us, but never to you. You are making a (ridiculous) claim: that Trump doesn’t lie. You have a burden of proof. We are making the opposite claim: that Trump lies. We have a burden of proof, and we have satisfied it many times over.

   It applies to all of us. If I make a claim then I need to support it. You need to recognise the sources you are using are problematic in supporting your claims. We are in a world on continuous propaganda from all sides of the political spectrum.

   What you should not do is resort to other logical fallacies like the straw man argument (fallacy) you proposed. I have not claimed “Trump never lies”.

   Here is my reply to Allan perviously.

   I am not claiming he has never lied. That would be extraordinary for anyone.

   You have not satisfied the burden of proof a “lying” accusation requires and the fact you do not realise this points to ideology first thinking. Since you are simply Trump bashing you are trying to hang on to the label “liar” to demonise our current President. The label that Allan is proposing “falsehood” has an easier burden but not the demonising punch “liar” has.

4. colewd:

   I have not claimed “Trump never lies”.

   Here is my reply to Allan perviously.

   I am not claiming he has never lied. That would be extraordinary for anyone.

   You haven’t acknowledged a single lie in the entirety of our eight month discussion. The closest you came was when you said that Trump’s claim about ending six seven eight ten wars was “not well supported”.

   But if you do finally acknowledge that Trump lies, that’s great. Let’s talk about it. What’s the most recent lie you’ve heard him tell, and how do you know that it’s a lie? This will help me understand what your criteria are.

   You’ve also said that Bill Clinton lied, and I agree. What criteria did you apply in making that determination?

   You need to recognise the sources you are using are problematic in supporting your claims. We are in a world on continuous propaganda from all sides of the political spectrum.

   You keep forgetting: I am not like you. I don’t blindly trust media outlets, and I don’t blindly trust politicians. Not the Washington Post, not Fox News, not Trump, not Harris, not Mike Johnson, not Hakeem Jeffries, not John Thune, not Chuck Schumer. I know how to fact check, and unlike you, I am willing to accept reality even when it disappoints me.

   There’s a reason I’ve caught you in factual error after factual error, while you haven’t caught me in a single one. In eight months. I’m happy to share my not-so-secret ways of separating fact from fiction, regardless of the source, if you’re willing to listen. I have a feeling you aren’t.

   You want to discount everything that any left-leaning news outlet (including the Washington Post) says because you’re afraid that some of what they’re saying is true. You’re right about that. A great deal of what they say is true, and it makes your Dear Leader look really, really bad. Horrible, in fact. That distresses you, and you’d rather not look into it for fear of finding out that it is in fact true.

   So you dismiss everything they say that is negative about Trump. You’re hiding from the truth. By contrast, I don’t dismiss everything that Fox News says. If they say something that’s true, it’s true, even if I wish it weren’t. I care about truth. You care about Trump.

   You say that Trump isn’t lying about all the things we’ve pointed out. Your main defense of him so far has not been to challenge the factual accuracy of what we say, since you know that we’re right, but to argue instead that we don’t know with certainty that Trump knows that what he’s saying is false. If it isn’t intentional, he isn’t lying, and I agree with you on that.

   Here’s the problem: I could apply that same logic. Unless we know with certainty that Trump isn’t intentionally saying false things, we can’t conclude that he isn’t lying. So by your criterion, we don’t know whether Trump is or isn’t lying unless we have certainty one way or the other about his state of mind.

   Why aren’t you saying that? It’s because you, like us, know that absolute certainty isn’t necessary. You’ve said that Bill Clinton lied, yet you don’t know with absolute certainty that he didn’t believe what he was saying. You have a double standard, and you need to, because without one it becomes obvious that Trump lies constantly.

   Here’s the right way for us to decide whether someone is lying: we should look at the evidence and ask ourselves: “Given this evidence, which is more likely? 1) That this person is deliberately stating a falsehood, or 2) that it isn’t deliberate and they actually believe what they’re saying?” That’s exactly the kind of discussion I want to have with you, and it’s exactly the kind of discussion you don’t want to have with me. That’s why you keep avoiding my questions. You know what conclusion they will lead to, and that scares you. Cult members are allergic to the cold hard truth about their cult leaders.

   I’m asking you to summon some courage. Let’s discuss some of these examples. Above, I wrote:

   Let’s start here: Trump is making a bunch of false claims about prices and inflation. I’ve provided the statistics that prove his claims are false. If he isn’t lying, as you claim, then he must genuinely believe everything he’s saying. Why do you think that? What leads you to the conclusion that he isn’t lying? Why is a grown man, the president of the United States no less, so completely out of touch with reality that he actually thinks prices are down, when any halfway intelligent person can see that they’re up?

   Be brave. State your case. I’ll state mine, and we can compare them to see whose conclusion best fits the evidence and how much better it is vs the alternative.

5. All of this is from one Truth Social post on November 26:

   Trump:

   The Creeps at the Failing New York Times are at it again.

   Truth:

   The NYT is thriving, not failing. From an August article:
   New York Times Revenue Jumps 9.7% From Subscriptions and Ads

   The company added 230,000 digital-only subscribers in the second quarter. It now has 11.88 million total subscribers.

   No surprise. Trump reflexively lies about people and outlets that are critical of him, claiming that they are failing or have low ratings.

   Trump:

   I won the 2024 Presidential Election in a Landslide, winning all Seven Swing States, the Popular Vote, and the Electoral College by a lot.

   Truth:

   It wasn’t a landslide. Trump’s popular vote margin over Harris was a razor-thin 1.5%.

   Trump:

   I won our Nation’s Districts by 2750 to 550, a complete wipeout.

   Truth:

   There are only 435 congressional districts in the US, so Trump’s claim is impossible. But we know that he’s stupid and doesn’t understand the US government and political system, so he may genuinely believe what he’s saying.

   My guess is that he’s confusing districts with counties. Even if he is, he’s still wrong. 2,750 plus 550 is 3,300, but there are only 3,144 counties (and county-equivalents) in the US.

   Both of the above are attributable to the fact that Trump is stupid, uneducated, and bad with numbers, but they don’t indicate dishonesty. What does indicate dishonesty is the fact that Trump’s comparison is ridiculous and meaningless. Elections aren’t decided by how many counties you win, and the only thing those numbers demonstrate is that Trump was more popular than Harris in rural counties. They don’t indicate that Trump’s victory was “a complete wipeout”, as he claims. Trump won Loving County, Texas, population 64. Harris won Los Angeles County, California, population 10 million. Trump is arguing that those victories are equivalent: one county for him, one county for Harris. That’s dishonest.

   Bill is welcome to argue that Trump isn’t being dishonest. He’s just stupid enough to believe that winning a county of over 10 million people is the equivalent of winning one with a population less than 100.

   Trump:

   …I settled 8 Wars…

   Truth:

   We’ve already covered this one, and Bill actually managed to admit that it was “not well supported”, though he couldn’t bring himself to call it the lie that it obviously is.

   Trump:

   our Economy is Great

   Truth:

   Our Economy is not great. Trump has failed on affordability despite his campaign promises. Unemployment is up. Job growth is anemic. Consumer sentiment is near an all-time low. Only 36% of people approve of Trump’s handling of the economy, according to the latest Gallup poll.

   Trump:

   and our Country is RESPECTED AGAIN all over the World, respected like never before.

   Truth:

   Pew surveyed people in 24 countries, finding that 62% had “no confidence” in Trump’s ability to handle world affairs. Ipsos surveyed 29 countries. Their Senior VP says:

   Three months into the second Trump Administration and six months after his election, the reputation of the United States as a force for good in the world has taken a serious hit, particularly among our traditional allies in Europe and Canada. This flies in the face of Donald Trump’s repeated campaign promise to restore respect for America around the world. However, given the inward focus of many Americans, it’s unlikely the MAGA base will notice our diminished standing on the world stage.

   Trump:

   The last Administration had the Highest Inflation in history…

   Truth:

   Not by a long shot. Inflation under Biden peaked at 9.1%, but in 1917 it was 20.5%, in 1920 it was 23.7%, and in 1980 it was over 14%. Also, blaming the 9.1% inflation on Biden overlooks the fact that it was even higher in Europe and the UK. Did Biden’s domestic policies cause that?

   Trump:

   I have already brought that down to normal

   Truth:

   He hasn’t brought it down at all. It was 3.0% when he was sworn in, and it’s 3.0% now.

   Trump:

   and prices, including groceries, are coming down.

   Truth:

   Prices are going up, as shown by the statistics I presented earlier in the thread.

   Trump:

   To do this requires a lot of Work and Energy, and I have never worked so hard in my life. Yet despite all of this the Radical Left Lunatics in the soon to fold New York Times did a hit piece on me that I am perhaps losing my Energy, despite facts that show the exact opposite.

   Truth:

   The facts show that he is slowing way down, including falling asleep at inappropriate times, such as in his latest Cabinet meeting. The “Sleepy Joe Biden” taunt has backfired with a vengeance.

   Trump:

   They know this is wrong, as is almost every thing that they write about me, including election results, ALL PURPOSELY NEGATIVE.

   Truth:

   The Times accurately reported the election results, and no one has identified any falsehoods. Their report on Trump’s flagging energy was based on publicly available information.

   Trump:

   I have my highest Poll Numbers, ever..,

   Truth:

   His poll numbers are the lowest they’ve ever been, except for immediately following the January 6 insurrection.

   Trump:

   and with record setting investment being made in America, they should only go up.

   Truth:

   He’s constantly lying about foreign investment in the US. I won’t document it here, but the numbers Trump quotes are double what his own White House says, and the White House numbers are already fictional.

   Trump:

   There will be a day when I run low on Energy, it happens to everyone, but with a PERFECT PHYSICAL EXAM AND A COMPREHENSIVE COGNITIVE TEST (“That was aced”) JUST RECENTLYTAKEN, it certainly is not now!

   Truth:

   They don’t send you for an MRI if your medical exam is “perfect”. He’s also lying when he says he doesn’t know what the MRI was for or what part of his body they were imaging. Not even Trump is incurious about his health (notice how much he’s been talking about the afterlife lately?) or addled enough not to ask or remember what the MRI was for.

   He also recently had his second “annual” physical in six months. Nothing suspicious about that, right?

   We still don’t have an explanation for the makeup he slathers on his hands to cover up his bruises, or the bandaids that were recently spotted. The official White House explanation — that it’s from shaking so many hands — doesn’t add up. He’s hiding something, possibly IV infusions.

   All of this in a single Truth Social post. It’s pathological.

6. colewd: You have not satisfied the burden of proof a “lying” accusation requires…

   You have not spelled out what, according to you, the burden of proof is – except there must be “intent”. But by the standard of intent Trump has been easily proven a monster liar and convicted of lying in courts. This somehow is not enough for you, which in turn proves that the problem is not Trump or his lying, but you – it is your brainwashed idiocy that is the problem.

   You really have no standards. You lack of definitions. Your terms are those of a lying moron (you’re a “very low-IQ person” as Trump would say), relying on denial of reality, double standards, moving goalposts, and many other fallacies with a specific cultish bias to worship Trump and bash very simple easily observable facts that have been pointed out to you.

   For example:

   colewd: Hard so sue against a vague statement and there is no reason if enough people think it is nonsense as the election showed. The burden is on those making the claim to substantiate the claim.

   So here your ultimate standard is elections: You’re saying that Trump won, therefore he is right. One of the many obvious problems with this is that you do not apply the same standard to Biden – somehow all the problems with the economy are Biden’s fault, even though he too won elections at one point. In USA, both parties win elections alternately, so do you switch to whining about “rightist media propaganda bias” when a Democrat president is in power?

   American elections are not truth-tellers and you as an American voter are the proof of it. You do not know what truth is, you do not care about facts, and you love lying when Trump does it. And you lie for Trump.

7. Dasha Burns, for Politico:

   But I do want to talk about the economy, sir, here at home, and I wonder what grade you would give–

   Trump:

   A+

   Burns:

   A+?

   Trump:

   Yeah, A+++++.

   Lol. Great way to position yourself for the midterms, Donald.

8. colewd,

   Now are you down grading your claim from lies to falsehoods?

   It is you who sets the impossible bar that a ‘lie’ must carry with it intent.

   Maybe we can agree he has made some claims that have turned out to be false.

   Do you have any examples?

   Do any of these claims have advisarial effect on the American or global population?

   Is lying OK if it does not have an [adverse?] effect on the population? Objective Morality, ladies and gents. Clinton is relieved.

9. colewd,

   If I make a claim then I need to support it.

   Excellent.

   Your claim: Washington Post’s list of 30000+ lies, or our Channel 4’s hours-long Trump vs the Truth are ‘propaganda’ – are themselves -falsehoods. Did I miss the post where you supported it?

10. Allan Miller,

    Your claim: Washington Post’s list of 30000+ lies, or our Channel 4’s hours-long Trump vs the Truth are ‘propaganda’ – are themselves -falsehoods. Did I miss the post where you supported it?

    From ChatGpt

    Good question — I can give you specific details on what The Washington Post (via its “Fact Checker” project) actually claimed regarding Donald J. Trump and the “30,000 lies” figure. The claim is based on documented “false or misleading claims” — not all are necessarily proven-lies (i.e. intent to deceive), but ones that the Post judged false or misleading.

    From ChatGPT

    Many media outlets, commentators, and critics simplified the Post’s “false or misleading claims” tally to “lies,” shorthand for “false statements.” This induces a rhetorical shorthand — “30,000 lies” — which is more evocative than “30,000 false or misleading claims.” In political discussion, that shorthand is often used for emphasis or framing.

    So the media took something based on the Washington Posts opinion called “false or misleading statements and labeled them lies”. What could have been reasonable analysis turns into propaganda. by labelling it to push a narrative.

    Any politician that promises something and does not deliver looking backwards has committed a false or misleading statement. I don’t believe any President has kept all their commitments.

11. Hahahha the president of the US told 30.000 falsehoods but he’s just misinformed, not a single lie among them. He’s such a moral character after all. Dumb, decieved, incompetent. But dishonest? NOT A CHANCE.

    LMAO

12. colewd: So the media

    Muh biased media u guys. Trust nobody in media ever. Only ever Trump himself or his favorite suckup channels Newsmax, ONN, and Fox News.

    Btw I’m not in a cult it’s all just spin and propaganda. Kiss the dear orange leader.

13. Rumraket:

    Hahahha the president of the US told 30.000 falsehoods but he’s just misinformed, not a single lie among them. He’s such a moral character after all.

    Sure, he’s corrupt, cruel, selfish, disloyal, childish, racist, and vindictive. But dishonest? How dare anyone make such a suggestion!

14. colewd:

    So the media took something based on the Washington Posts opinion…

    Not opinion. Facts. They documented every entry in that database.

    called “false or misleading statements and labeled them lies”.

    So your position is that if some of the 30,573 were unintentional, then all of them were unintentional? And that those 30,573 unintentional false statements all just happened to be in Trump’s favor, by pure coincidence?

    What could have been reasonable analysis turns into propaganda. by labelling it to push a narrative.

    You are terrified of having a reasonable discussion about this. I’ve been trying literally for months to get you to discuss specific falsehoods and whether they amount to lies. (They do, obviously.) Every time, you just run away.

    Any politician that promises something and does not deliver looking backwards has committed a false or misleading statement. I don’t believe any President has kept all their commitments.

    As if false promises were the only falsehoods to escape Trump’s lips.

    Let’s talk specifics, Bill. Above, I asked:

    Trump is making a bunch of false claims about prices and inflation. I’ve provided the statistics that prove his claims are false. If he isn’t lying, as you claim, then he must genuinely believe everything he’s saying. Why do you think that is? What leads you to the conclusion that he isn’t lying? Why is a grown man, the president of the United States no less, so completely out of touch with reality that he actually thinks prices are down, when any halfway intelligent person can see that they’re up?

    What is your explanation, and why do you think it’s better than the obvious one, which is that Trump is lying in an attempt to cover up his failure?

15. colewd,

    Suppose Trump were here, reading this thread, and he asked you:

    Why aren’t you defending me? These people are calling me a liar for claiming that prices are down and inflation is dead, and you’re not disputing it. Do you think I’m wrong? Do you think I’m lying? Are you just going to sit there and say nothing when your favorite president is under attack?

    What would you say? How would you justify your failure to him?

16. Anyhoo, I hear that that bastion of free speech America is planning to ask for 5 years of social media for ESTA applications. I doubt this place counts, but I have mocked and criticised His Orangeness from time to time so I guess I’ll be persona non grata for the foreseeable. It’s funny, because Yanks imagine that we are under some kind of speech iron fist. You can’t be strongly racist, but who wants to? You can certainly criticise Starmer, as resident or foreigner; it comes with the territory.

    Of course, I could just delete my accounts, but I’m not jumping through hoops; America can fuck off.

    Shame. I quite like the place, and some of the people.

17. colewd:
    Allan Miller,

    So the media took something based on the Washington Posts opinion called “false or misleading statements and labeled them lies”. What could have been reasonable analysis turns into propaganda. by labelling it to push a narrative.

    So you accept that your idol has uttered 30,000+ false or misleading statements, but not one lie? That is actually an epic work rate, even taking refuge in weedy semantics. “No-one in history has come close to that tally of false or misleading statements. ‘Sir’, they say, ‘your ability to utter false or misleading statements is unprecedented’. That’s a funny word, unprecedented. No-one’s seen it before”.

18. Just last night, at his Pennsylvania rally, Trump confirmed that he had lied back in 2018 after a private meeting with senators. He recounted:

    We had a meeting and I said, ‘Why is it we only take people from shithole countries, right? Why can’t we have some people from Norway, Sweden, just a few. Let us have a few. From Denmark … send us some nice people. Do you mind?’ But we always take people from Somalia, places that are a disaster, right? Filthy, dirty, disgusting, ridden with crime. The only thing they’re good at is going after ships.

    Following that meeting, there was outrage over his use of the phrase ‘shithole countries’. Trump denied having said it:

    The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used.

    Now he’s confirming it. It puts you in a difficult position, Bill. Is he lying now, or was he lying then? Or are you going to argue that he’s terminally confused and had no idea then or now of what he actually said?

    To reality-based folks, it’s obvious. He used the phrase ‘shithole countries’, as the Democratic senators reported at the time and as he now has confirmed. He lied about it back then when it was politically harmful to admit that he said it, but he’s boasting about it now because he knows that his racism is appealing to many in the MAGA base.

    He’s a lying, racist creep. Among his other lies last night, he said:

    I love this Ilhan Omar, whatever the hell her name is, with the little ching, the little turban. I love her. She comes in, does nothing but bitch. She’s always complaining…

    I love it; she comes to our country and she’s always complaining about ‘the Constitution allows me to do this’. The Constitution — we ought to get her the hell out, she married her brother in order to get in, right? She married her brother. She married her brother to get in, therefore she’s here illegally. She should get the hell out, throw her the hell out. She does nothing but complain. [Audience chants “Send her back.”]

    She didn’t marry her brother, she’s not here illegally, what she wears isn’t a “turban” (as any educated person knows), and Donald Trump is a racist creep.