Donald Trump’s behavior is so far outside the norm that many people (including mental health professionals) have suggested that he is mentally ill. The most common suggestions I’ve seen are that he suffers from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), antisocial personality disorder (ASPD, also known as sociopathy), or a combination of the two (known as malignant narcissism). There is also widespread concern about cognitive decline.
I looked up the diagnostic criteria for NPD and ASPD, and it’s shocking how many of the boxes Trump ticks. Here are the criteria for NPD according to the American Psychiatric Association’s diagnostic manual, the DSM-5-TR:
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (301.81 [F60.81])
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Requires excessive admiration.
- Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations).
- Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends).
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
I would argue that Trump meets all 9 of those criteria. Only 5 are required for an NPD diagnosis.
Here are the criteria for ASPD:
Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7 [F60.2])
Diagnostic Criteria
A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
- Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
- Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
- Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
- Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
- Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
- Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
- Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
B. The individual is at least age 18 years.
C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a manic episode.
I’d say that Trump meets all of the numbered criteria except #4. Only 3 are needed for an ASPD diagnosis. He’s certainly irritable and aggressive, but I haven’t heard reports of any physical altercations. He meets criteria B and D, but I don’t know enough about his early life to comment on criterion C, which is Conduct Disorder.
Anyway, the point is not whether Trump would qualify for a formal diagnosis. Diagnosis or no, any person who meets that many criteria for both NPD and ASPD is manifestly unfit for office.
Here are some examples of why Trump meets criterion #1 for NPD, which is
‘Nobody Knows More’ Than Trump About Anything: A Supercut
“I’ve accomplished more than any president in history.”
“Nobody negotiates better than me, the best in history, just look at the ceasefires I’ve delivered—Israel/Iran, India/Pakistan, all done with my genius!”
“Sorry losers and haters, but my I.Q. is one of the highest -and you all know it!”
“I have a great memory, one of the great memories of all time.”
“All the women on The Apprentice flirted with me – consciously or unconsciously.”
Claims to have had a crowd size as big as Martin Luther King’s
Plenty more where those came from. This isn’t swagger — it’s pathological, delusional grandiosity.
I think if Trump were abjectly failing to make progress on his campaign promises, people would be amused rather than angry.
Edit:
Except for the economy. No sane person wants a bad economy, regardless of politics.
I see you are keen to change the topic here also. There’s a name for what you are doing.
The psychopathological entities Epstein and Trump – best friends of each other for close to 15 years – are an interesting case study. Epstein, a well-known convicted sex trafficker, said that friendship with Trump served him well as he learned from Trump how to do human trafficking effectively. Eventually, he fell out with Trump because Trump was a “crook”.
Trump, for his part, praised Epstein as “a terrific guy, a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” Quite a telling recommendation, isn’t it? But why is Trump “not a fan” nowadays? Because Epstein “stole” young women from Trump’s Mar-a-Lago spa. (Really? Didn’t you just say that that’s exactly what you liked about him?!)
In reality, Trump and Epstein fell out over this house. Epstein wanted it, and specifically wanted it the way it originally was, but Trump outbid him at the auction with the help of Russian oligarch funding. Trump won the auction and then redid the house with more Russian oligarch funding, shaping it up for the oligarch who had actually wanted it, but had been unable to buy it directly. So Epstein ended up deciding that Trump was too much of a crook for him, throwing too much dirty and shady Russian mafia money around.
The topic is Trump’s accomplishments, and whether he is a shit talker or mentally ill.
There is more than a little WWE in Trump’s pronouncements, but I suspect his opponents are not really disturbed by this. Nor are his supporters confused by it.
What disturbs them are the things he actually accomplishes. If he got nothing done, people would not be so angry. There was a New Yorker cover in 2017 depicting Trump driving an Autorama car. I don’t think they would run that again.
Wrong. But okay, you are always wrong. That’s just what you are.
petrushka:
The topic is Trump and mental illness. The OP title — “Trump and mental illness” — is a clue.
We are disturbed by it, for a number of reasons:
1) Having a mentally ill president is a bad thing;
2) His pathological lying is evidence of his insecurity, which is why he is desperate for Putin’s approval, among many other things;
3) He lies repeatedly to the American people, which shows his contempt for us;
4) He lies in order to appeal to and encourage bigotry (“they’re eating the cats and dogs”, “Barack Hussein Obama”, etc.);
5) He demonizes his opponents: eg “Radical Left Lunatics” who “hate America”;
6) His entire political career is based on lies. If he were honest, he wouldn’t have gotten elected in the first place;
7) Many of his harmful policies depend on lies:
a) The tariffs are based on phony “national emergencies”, as discussed in the tariffs thread;
b) The deportations to El Salvador without due process were justified on the basis of the ridiculous lie that MS23 gang members were invading the US as agents of the Venezuelan government;
c) His deployments of the military to Los Angeles and Washington are both based on lies;
d) His push to eliminate mail-in voting is based on a lie;
There are more, but I’ve made my point.
If they’re like colewd, they actually believe the lies until (and usually even if) confronted with proof that they are lies.
It’s both. Shuttering USAID and the Department of Education were harmful accomplishments. His inability to bring prices down is a disturbing failure.
They’d still be angry. Trump promised to bring prices down on Day One. He’s not even trying, and people are pissed.
I expect politicians to lie. I do not expect them to be decent human beings.
I am not surprised when they cheat with their friends’ wives. This is what passes for normal among politicians.
What is unusual is keeping campaign promises. I think this is what upsets you.
For the record, I did not vote for this.
What I would vote for, if given the chance, is term limits. Imagine if we didn’t have limits on the presidency. That’s how I feel about congress.
petrushka,
There are real reasons Trump won two elections and voters like Keiths are in very big denial about the condition of the Democratic Party. No matter what Trumps weaknesses are he is more appealing than the alternative to the majority of voters.
Keiths whether he knows it or not is anti democratic as he only attacks and does not compare or consider the alternative. He is trying to create the illusion that we only have one choice because the other choice is so distasteful. If this tactic was consistently successful it would destroy our democracy.
Democracy is about a choice and not about the perfect candidate.
petrushka:
I don’t know where you’re getting this. I fault him both for keeping bad promises and for failing to keep good ones.
colewd:
Yes, Trump won two elections. He is also a horrible person and a terrible president. There is nothing contradictory about those two statements.
Also, I haven’t said anything about the Democratic Party, so I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that I’m in denial about its condition.
He was more appealing, but now he isn’t. The voters hate the job he’s doing. His approval is in the toilet.
Slow down and think, Bill. Nothing I’ve said argues against people voting for the candidate of their choice. I’m pro-democracy, unlike Trump, who instructed the Texas legislature to steal five House seats for him because he thinks that regardless of what the voters want, he is “entitled” to them (his exact word). That’s as antidemocratic as it gets. If democracy is important to you, why do you still support him?
Um, no. The election is over. I’m criticizing the guy who won, who is a horrible person and a terrible president.
Lol. “You can’t criticize politicians! This is a democracy!”
Yes, democracy is about choices, candidates aren’t perfect, and Trump is a horrible person and a terrible president. It all fits together.
Funny that you have never listed a single weakness. Trump has plenty: Financial and business fraud, debauchery, human trafficking, the “bully the victim” approach to negotiations, constant lying and mental illness.
Can you list the weaknesses that you have in mind about Trump? Why do you never list any? I get it: You are trying out the rhetorical manipulation tactics that you are slowly learning from Trump. You have never had anything substantive to say, only obvious lies and propaganda talking points.
Very un-Christian of you. Do you hate Christianity these days?
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
The only approval rating that counts is elections.
At this point in Obama’s second term, he was at -19.
He recovered.
Erik,
I already listed some of them previously. He as Keiths showed shows signs of unhealthy narcissism which is not atypical of Presidential candidates including Biden. He uses hyperbolic language to describe his accomplishments. He underestimates the time it takes to solve complex problems. Some of his tactical decisions appear to be shooting from the hip.
On the positive side as petrushka mentioned he meets most of the commitments of his pre election promises. This would be great if other candidates would do this.
petrushka:
Yeah, who cares whether the president is doing a good job? It’s not as if he’s there to serve the people. Those whiners who think he’s doing a bad job — those crybabies who have him underwater on every major issue — their opinion doesn’t matter. They should just shut up. They’ll get their chance to be heard in the 2026 election, after the Republicans have neutered their voices by gerrymandering the hell out of every state they can get away with, so that Donald gets all those House seats that he’s “entitled” to.
Come on, petrushka. When the question is “How do the people feel about the president’s performance in office?”, the answer isn’t “look at the last election”, it’s “look at the current polls”.
Colewd points to the elections as proof that Trump isn’t a horrible person and a bad president, and in fact he zeroes in on the independent voters as his arbiters. Trump can’t be bad since a majority of independent voters chose him. That’s a bogus argument, but let’s suppose for a moment that he’s right. Those same independent voters now think that Trump is horrible. I cited the figures in the other thread:
If the opinion of the independents proved that he wasn’t a bad guy at the time of the election, then the opinion of the independents now proves that he is a bad guy. Colewd doesn’t like that, but he can’t have it both ways.
But of course his argument is bogus to begin with. There is nothing contradictory about this sentence: “Trump is a horrible person and a terrible president, and a majority of independents voted for him in the last election.”
Right now, in the tariffs thread, we’re discussing Trump’s grandiose claims about having ended six wars (or seven, or ten, lol). He’s lying, as I’ve shown. The reason I can say that isn’t because a majority of voters agree with me. It’s because in reality, Trump didn’t end six wars. Whether a claim is true or false depends on whether it’s true in reality, not whether a majority of people agree or disagree with it. That should be obvious.
Bill is upset with reality because it undercuts his cult beliefs, so he is looking for a group of people he can point to and say “See? They agree with me. Reality is wrong!” He then amusingly shoots himself in the foot by picking independents, who overwhelmingly disagree with him.
If Trump is like Biden, then why don’t you think he is more or less equal to Biden? I know why. Because he is nothing like Biden. Not even close. Biden never once required open corruptive gifts the way Trump does every week. Biden never once fired or jailed his political opponents. Biden does not demand that people say he won the elections that he lost and did not attempt a coup after he lost.
In fact, I guess you are manipulating here again. In Trump’s case, you actually do not view “unhealthy narcissism” as a negative. You view it as a hugely attractive positive. But in Biden’s case, where there is barely any narcissism at all, you view it as a negative. Yup, knowing you, this is the more accurate way of putting it.
Obviously Trump is *not* using hyperbolic language. He is lying pathologically. And, again, you see it as a huge positive, not a negative.
So, try again. You still failed at mentioning any negatives.
Neither petrushka or you mention any specifics on the positive side either. What specifically is Trump committed to and how is that a positive for the people or the country? Is dictatorship a positive? Is the demolition of law and order a positive?
And no, his six-seven-ten peace deals is neither a positive or a commitment. It is a flat-out lie. And tariffs are not a positive either in any way to anyone.
Erik:
colewd:
“Signs of narcissism”? He checks all nine boxes for narcissistic personality disorder, a serious mental illness. And no, he is not like other presidents. Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Biden were not pathological narcissists. When did you hear any of them say things like the following?
Go ahead. List as many examples as you can of Biden saying things like that. Relative to Trump, those other presidents are the humblest people in the world. Trump doesn’t merely show “signs of narcissism”, he ticks all the boxes for full-blown NPD.
Take a look at the hat he wore at the FIFA press conference:
Can you imagine another world leader — say, Emmanuel Macron — wearing a hat like that at an official appearance? Trump is a narcissistic dork, a national embarrassment. It’s pathological.
colewd:
He flat-out lies about them and lies about his abilities. I gave you an example in the other thread:
That isn’t “hyperbolic language”. Every one of those claims is a lie, and he managed to tell six of them in a single sentence. Six!
Trump continually lies to you. He has no respect for you and your fellow cult members, but he knows he can get away with it because you will blindly believe and obey. The Dear Leader isn’t lying, he’s just exaggerating a little, you say. You are in denial.
If the things you listed are the only “faults” you’re willing to acknowledge in your Dear Leader, then you are still firmly in the cult. Your mind is shut tight against the evidence. You are a True Believer.
Erik,
You need to improve your sources of information. Almost everything you said here is wrong.
keiths,
For it to be a lie you must prove intent. You are using your own hyperbolic language.
colewd:
As I said in the tariff thread:
Plus, there’s no way you can look at the literally thousands of lies Trump has told in office and argue that he’s trying to be honest but is simply mistaken. It’s ludicrous.
I learned today that at one of the golf clubs where he is a member, Trump kicked the ball onto the fairway so many times that the caddies nicknamed him “Pelé”. 😂
This is the president of the United States, but he is so insecure and narcissistic that he even cheats at golf and lies about his tournament victories. That’s pathological.
ETA:
Trump kicks his golf ball back on the course so much that caddies have nicknamed him ‘Pelé’
Says the guy who cannot even read Grok 😂
This is good. Rick Reilly, the author of the aforementioned book, is challenging Trump to a $100,000 golf bet:
Donald Trump gets $100,000 golf challenge from writer. Here’s what we know
Some excerpts from that article:
And:
It’s reminiscent of how “six wars” turned into “seven” and now “ten”.
And:
For anyone who hasn’t seen it, here’s the video of Trump cheating in Scotland.
Is anyone suprised that a man who is so ego-driven that he lies about golf also lies pathologically about far more important things?
petrushka,
An odd way to put it. “People aren’t angry that he’s gassing Jews, but that he’s succeeded in implementing his strategy”.
This is hardly a win. You saying Trump doesn’t know what he’s saying? That, if he says inflation is down, or he’s stopped
67a squillion wars, he doesn’t really know?From the river to the sea.
Allan Miller,
The win is showing continued unsupported claims on anti Trump side. The TDS lazy label you hate demonstrated on almost every post. The only reason to exaggerate and make false claims is an attempt to sell a false narrative due to an irrational attachment to an ideology. ie Keiths playing amateur psychologist.
Are we having fun yet 🙂
colewd:
That would be a win — if you could pull it off. Want to give it a try? You can start with Trump’s lies about the ceasefires and about ending wars. I’ve claimed that those are lies, and I’ve supported my claims. Please show how the claims I’ve supported are unsupported claims.
Do you think that Trump doesn’t meet the 9 criteria for NPD and most of the criteria for ASPD? I encourage you: make your case. I want to discuss this, which is why I started this thread. Argue for Trump’s mental health.
And instead of just saying that our narrative is false, demonstrate it. Instead of just lazily labeling us, show that we are wrong.
Here’s a template for you to follow:
Give it a shot.
A hilarious compilation of weird and moronic clips from today’s press conference:
What You Missed at Trump’s Extra-Weird Press Conference
keiths,
Show me where you supported your claim.
colewd:
The ending wars lie: Link
The ceasefire lie: Link
I even gave you a hint for addressing the ending wars lie:
keiths,
You have made the Claim Keiths and your attempt at a burden shift shows you are unable to support it.
Lying includes a misstatement and intent. So far you have not supported either burden.
Bill, that’s pitiful.
I’ve shown that Trump lied. You disagree (or claim to, anyway). Show that I’m wrong. Did I get my facts wrong? Which ones? Cite your sources. Did I make a logical error? Quote me, and explain the mistake. Give us your interpretation of what Trump said and why it’s true. Saying “I get to say that you’re wrong without showing that you’re wrong” isn’t going to fool anyone.
Look, it’s clear that you know Trump lied, so why continue the charade? The question is purely psychological at this point: why do you, a grown man, find it so difficult to acknowledge something that everyone including you can see? Where does this emotional dependence on the Dear Leader come from? Do you want to remain a cult member, or would you like to regain some semblance of rationality and independence of thought? You’re clearly uncomfortable with the fact that you can’t defend the DL. Why not decide that the truth matters, and open yourself up to the evidence? It will cause some temporary pain to acknowledge the truth about the DL, but in the long run, wouldn’t it feel better to have truth on your side, for a change?
The usual gnomic utterances from you.
colewd,
Your slavish cultism displayed in every post. You claim to be on the side of rational debate, but all you can do is utter ‘TDS’ to any and every criticism. It’s not an argument. It’s a slogan.
keiths,
Seconded. I search in vain for rational counterarguments.
In the space below that paragraph, I was expecting to see some kind of refutation; some instances of Biden ticking those boxes. But no, it just kinda tails off…
“Burden Shift Tennis” is a popular game in Internet circles. Here’s a prime example of the Quick One-Eighty. We just take Trump’s pronouncements as axioms, I guess.
Wes Moore’s ‘lol’ made me lol. Presumably not a lie, despite being apparently untrue, because we cannot prove Trump is aware it’s untrue.
lol.
Allan Miller,
Keiths claims Trump lied in two instances. He posts a link that shows what Trump said without showing with definitive proof it is a lie. Then he shifts the burden to ask me to prove it is true. Help me understand how this supports his claim? You hate the TDS label but how else do you support this behaviour?
Allan Miller,
What a politician says is something we should be very skeptical of based on history. What he does is what we can trust. Biden let the border add 8 million unvetted people into our country. We can trust he does not give a damn about the people he is supposed to represent.
What form would ‘definitive proof’ take? If he claims to have stopped 7 wars, and has not in fact stopped 7 wars, he’s either lying or delusional. So to avoid the ‘lying’ charge, we’d have to assume he doesn’t really know what’s going on, poor fella.
Biden is no longer President. His failings are his failings. Now, about Donald J. Trump…
Allan Miller,
A burden shift is a logical fallacy and someone who is seasoned and uses this tactic is not interested in a rational truth seeking discussion.
Well, you’ve shifted the burden, so maybe think about that.
Allan Miller,
Having proof he never talked to the people he claimed would be definitive proof. Having Clintons sperm on Monica’s dress and a tape of him denying a relationship is proof. Calling people a liar is a silly claim to make given the quality of information most of us had.
BTW I think Clinton is the most productive past President we have had.
Biden and Kamala were the alternatives. If this discussion is about raising the bar on Presidential capability then we still need to look a at multiple Presidents.
Accusing Trump of lying is the original claim.
colewd,
No, “I have stopped 7 wars” is the original claim.
colewd,
Nah. He doesn’t get off the hook by other people’s failings.
So it is not good enough when the war in question never ended, no peace agreement was signed, or the war never existed in the first place.
You are a delulu Trump cultist entirely in Lalaland with everything you say. By your standards, I should not say that you are lying, because you have no clue what you are saying. Your only sources of information are selective hearing of Trump and misreading of Grok, which has totally demolished your connection with reality, if there ever was any.
Allan Miller,
This is a secondary claim which I agree was not well supported.