Coywolves have been threatening the peace and security of my neighbourhood for many years… Is coywolf an example of macroevolution in action right in front of our eyes? Is coywolf a new species? Or, is it an example of change (microevolution) within a kind?
This is up to Mung and people like him, who are seeking the true answers, to decide…
For those who would like to watch the full documentary please search:
Meet The Coywolf as it is copyright protected and can’t be embedded into the OP.
I would leave it up to the biologists — particularly the ones who have been studying these animals — to decide.
for both creationists and evolutionists its about segregated populations maintaining a bodyplan by maintaining the population.
Hybrids never do this i think. the hybrid is always absorbed in the actual populations .
is there such things as species?
All that nature accepts is segregated populations with bodyplans.
How this came to be is the question.
yet it does mean that humans are rightly seemn as different from each other based on different bodyplans maintained by populations. that means humans are different species. despite universal ability to reproduce.
Nature doesn’t care if you can reproduce with another species. All it cares about is bodyplans in populations.
Did you watch the video?
I think it says there that coywolf is a relatively new phenomenon beginning in 1990… If that is true than biologists may need to revisit and revise their belief system, no?
I think this phenomenon can vindicate those who believe that changes like that could have happened within kinds after Noah’s Flood…
Obviously biologist you so trust can argue their case with what constitutes species and all… but confusion among them, whether real or deliberate, is nothing new, no?
ETA: You don’t think Mung can and should make this kind of decision?
Robert Byers,
Bob,
I think you missed a part of your comment when you pasted it, no?
No. When I first saw the post, I delayed watching the video until later. And when I came back, it was gone. I guess that saved me the trouble of watching it.
I had already heard of the coywolf, but I’m not sure if I ever saw a TV program on it.
I assume that a new species via hybridization was already known to be possible.
It’s not actually important to me. However, new species are typically identified by biologists. And yes, they have been known to occasionally make mistakes.
I’m glad you have clarified this… again…
I especially enjoy when “unbiased biologists” make occasional and not so occasional mistakes… That’s why I always enjoy paying attention to the “biased biologist” and lately I have found that relying on my own intuition is the most reliable tool… I hope you understand…
ETA: Goodbye!!!
Yes, it was. Darwin speculated that hybridization played no great role in evolution, but evidence has been mounting for decades that he was wrong on that particular matter. The first of the evidence I ever saw had to do with evolution of irises. The research was by Michael Arnold, whose career was subsequently wrecked by the Darwinistas — NOT! As I recall, the National Science Foundation responded to his dissertation research by hitting him a Presidential Young Investigator Award.
Of course, “Darwin was wrong in one of his speculations” seems like an awful admission to religious people who project their own religiosity onto people who accept some parts of Darwinian theory. They really do believe, bless their little hearts, that Darwin’s Origin is our Bible, and that Richard Dawkins is our high priest.
What’s a “kind”? Speaking scientifically, that is.
You and your evil materialism.
Same thing as a species I would suppose.
That would be a lot of pairs on the Ark.
We will never know until we figure out what species means.
How about ‘reproductively isolated population’? Of course – ‘cos you’re phoodoo – we have to add the caveat that the isolating mechanism must be biological, and further that we do have a bunch of unsatisfactory halfway house situations where fertile interbreeding is rare, but not nonexistent … for some baffling reason.
So, on to kinds.
You all are lucky.
Canine “species” is one of my favorite topics but I’m just too busy to participate.
FYI
If you think the coy-wolf is a difficult call you should take a look at it’s close relative the red wolf
peace
peace
A “kind” scientifically speaking is just as well defined as species… all scientists have to do is agree on one…
You can indulge us with the species definition…
Coywolf easily fits the profile of a species within a kind, which includes wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals, dogs (domestic) dingoes, and many more…
And then there were marsupial wolves… they are a problem all right but for the believes of the so called convergent evolution and not those who see them as a separate kind… lol
Defining species leads to catch 22 and an evolutionary nonsense… that’s why they avoid it because it’s paradoxical… lol
Too many exceptions…
J-Mac,
Allan would like you to ignore the exceptions, just proceed with the ones that aren’t exceptions.
How do we know which ones are the exceptions and not the exceptions? Well, let’s just ignore that.
Yes marsupial wolves are a problem for classification systems which are a problem in scientific investigation into biological relationships. Not just with doggy types.
A KIND is Gods term. Since the fall natures corruption of biology makes KINDS elusive.
however we can put into kinds very like looking creatures.
We know there is a snake kind, primate kind(not us though ), bird KINDS(the ark dove/raven).
I don’t agree with yEC in making the doggy kIND so small. i see marsupial, other extinct types, wolves within the ‘dog’ kind and also put in it the bear , probably the seal, the hyanea, and loads of fossil variations. indeed probably some so called dinosaurs are just dog kinds. The ones they say are part mammal/reptile etc etc. A few look doggy.
Yes the marsupial dog is a wolf. No convergent evolution doesn’t prove otherwise. its unreasonable. its just dumb classification of biology on the wrong traits.
To bad there is not a list in the Bible. I guess even God was unable to come up with a definition.
No, I wouldn’t like you to ignore the exceptions. Indeed, I mentioned them. Why are there exceptions? Because of evolution. A gradual process is bound to generate halfway house situations on the way.
So by all means look at the exceptions.
So, I have defined a species – a population reproductively isolated from all other such populations. If two populations cannot interbreed, they are definitely separate species.
So now, what is the equivalent definitive distinction between kinds?
and Tyrannosaurus rex. Let’s not forget Tyrannosaurus.
J-Mac,
Too many for what? Can you quantify this? For example, how many different populations can bonobos hybridise with, as a proportion of those with which they cannot?
Evolutionist: “A gradual process of divergence would be expected to lead to some situations where interbreeding is rare rather than nonexistent”.
Creationist: “Here are some some situations where interbreeding is rare rather than nonexistent, therefore evolution is false”.
Ya what?
… or for those who see them as the same kind
Kinds are so obvious aren’ t they?
I think this is a historical error.
The important thing is whether a segregated population has a different bodyplan.
whether they can rep[roduce is irrelevant. i say nature’s mechanism for having made a diffeent bodyplan in a segregated population has no interest in whether they can anymore reproduce.
The job is done. So species does not require reproductive exclusivity between species.
Thats why humans are rightly seen as different species if species is a real thing.
The changing/maintaing of bodyplans is the point in the mechanism.
Its impossible nature demands anything more.
Yes indeed. This kinda looks like that.
The title of the OP presents a false dichotomy. It can be a new species and still be “change within a kind.”
According to the Canadian researchers who have been studying coywolfs for many years now they appeared or evolved in the area of Chicago and Toronto within the last 30 years..
I’m sure Darwinists have predicted the “quantum leaps” or the enormous changes by Darwinian evolutionary changes between coyotes interbreeding with wolves… Darwinism never sleeps …
Yes, it is hysterical Bob…
Escalante!
What is a new body plan, Bob?
If you were to evolve, how would you know you had a new body plan?
Is Larry Moran and the Sashimi guy the examples of the new body plans?
https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-role-of-chance-in-evolution.html
Not if you are looking to reproduce it isn’t.
Nothing requires it – it just happens. Many population pairs with almost identical body plans cannot interbreed. Why, or how?
The reality is that segregated populations are maintaining new bodyplans.
otherwise they would STILL be the same original population.
however the founders start the new bodyplan , thats a issue for both creationist/evolutionists, THERE it is.
If they cannot interbreed then some mechanism has occured that has changed them enough.
my point is that its a clear error, to me, to hear that speciation has anything to do with non-reproducing abilities.
Humans being the case. if we were one tribe and look the same and now we have very different looking groups THEN whatever the mechanism was that changed us HAS indeed taken effect.evolutionists call, and would call, it evolution. SO if its evolution then the facxt that we can all interbreed changes nothing about the mechanism having happened. HOWEVER evolutionists etc want to ADD another threshold to have taken place. Inability to BREED anymore. WHY? Nature/evolution would be blind to this agenda. Its done its work. Its finished.
Therefore human types of different peoples, I don’t race concept, ARE as much different species as anything in nature. As much as whales are from dolphins, though they can be made to reproduce, .
nobody ever says humans are different species. why not? i could start a thread on it.
Who made up, can back up, natures demand of non reproducing as a essential part to legitimize the ORIGIN OF SPECIES.
I wonder if in this confusion a flaw in evolutionary thinking can be teased out!?